Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

[Darrell C]

Is there but one people of God, those saved by the promised messiah?

Sure is: One Fold. One Shepherd.

Now look at what you asked:

Is there but one people of God, those saved by the promised messiah?

What is the one thing you are overlooking?


God bless.

 

[37818]

I'm not into reading your rambling essays.

I think @Darrell C gave clear explanations.

Romans 2:1, ". . . Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. . . ."

Jesus explains the believer's condition before Pentecost in John 14:16-17 ". . . And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. . . ."

 

[Darrell C]

Christ is most certainly revealed in the Old Testament.

Luke 24:25-27 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Further: Henry Mahan - With New Testament Eyes: Foreward & Acknowledgements (ochristian.com)

Further: "Christ in the Old Testament" Eager Avenue Grace Church | SermonAudio

I also wanted to point out on this one, there is a difference in revelation being revealed and revelation being revealed in understanding. That Isaiah wrote about the death of Christ doesn't mean that it was revealed to Isaiah.


1 Peter 1:10-12 King James Version

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Notes:

1. Prophecy speaks of what is going to happen, not what is happening (although we do still "speak forth" the Word of God). That is why it is called prophecy. Just as Promise is called Promise.

2. The prophets preached the Gospel but themselves did not have an understanding in full of what it meant (v.11).

3. The Prophecy testified beforehand what would take place (v.11), again establishing that the redemption Christ would accomplish—hadn't happened yet.

4. What was revealed was that they were ministering those things (the prophecy) to a future generation. Again, that is why it is called prophecy, and they are called prophets (v.12).

5. Those things are now reported among them (the recipients of the Epistles in the first century) by those who preach the Gospel (v.12).

6. They preach the Gospel with the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven, the Comforter, the Promised Spirit (v.12)


Colossians 1:25-27 King James Version

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Again, the Gospel was a Mystery, it was not revealed to Ages and generation in the past. That covers everyone.

Notes:

1. Paul preaches the dispensation (administration) of the Gospel (v.25)

2. The Gospel is a Mystery, a previously unrevealed truth (v.26).

3. The Mystery was hid from ages and generations (v.26).

4. The Mystery is now revealed (made manifest, Romans 16:24-27) to His saints, that would be those in this Age (v.26).

5. God would make known the riches of the glory of this Mystery to these saints (v.27).

6. The riches of the glory is the indwelling of Christ in the believer (v.27).


Now, who was indwelt by Christ in the Old Testament if He Himself prophesied that this indwelling would take place after He returned to Heaven? That is clearly taught in John 14:15-23 (and I have posted these numerous times) and John 16:7.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

If I missed anyone's post just let me know. I was suddenly inundated, lol, and I may have missed one.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Amen, as ALL ever saved were under the NC of grace, even when in OT times!

Okay, I will show you why you are in error here JF, and I hope you will take it in the way it is intended: as a means of helping you better understand why you are a "fan" of Jesus Christ. These responses are given in love, meant to help my brethren, not hurt them.

You say that "All ever saved were under the New Covenant of grace."

That is error easily shown to be error.


Jeremiah 31:31-34 King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


The days that would come when the New Testament would be established had not come before this statement, right? You understand that the nation of Israel was divided and this because they broke the Covenant of Law?

That they were under the Covenant of Law?

And that they were still under the Covenant of Law when Messiah came?

Now let's jump to the First Century:


Hebrews 10 King James Version

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Beginning in the Garden, the sacrifice of animals for the "covering" of sin began. Abel did it, Noah did it, Abraham did it, Jacob did it, and when the Covenant of Law was established, you guessed it—animals died when it was established.

But note here that the sacrifices of the Law could not make men perfect (complete in regards to remission of sins, v.1) because it could not take away sins (v.4). In view is both a literal taking away of sins as well as taking away the penalty for sins.



5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


This refers to God the Son manifesting in flesh (See Hebrews 1:1-2). God has never been pleased about vicarious sacrifice for the remission of sins, but in His mercy He allowed animals to die in the place of the sinner. The wages of sin is death. Always has been, always will be while there is this physical creation. Even in the Millennial Kingdom (I throw that in for the amils here, lol).

God was not pleased with the sacrifices of the Law (v.8), but He bestowed remission of sins for it anyway. That was the prescribed method beginning with Adam.


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

We, those who are partakers of the New Covenant, are sanctified (set apart unto God) by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ—once for al (v.10)l. Forever. That is what that means.

When did Christ offer Himself up? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't while the Law was in force (Galatians 4:4-6).

We see the contrast between the work of the Levitical Priesthood and the Work of Christ. They had to continually offer up for sin because as it states in the beginning of the Chapter—the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin, or the penalty of sin.

But here's the Good News, JF:

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

In other words, those of us who have been sanctified by the Offering of Christ (His death in our stead) have been made complete in regards to remission of sins—forever.

Now here is a concept you haven't seemed to grasp yet, and that is Promise. When we go back to Jeremiah 31:31-34 we see God promising Israel a New Covenant. The Covenant you claim "all who have ever been saved were under." You don't receive a promise until the promise is fulfilled. And it is Christ Who fulfilled the Promise.

Consider carefully the next statements:


15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


Do you see that the Promise of the New Covenant is said be fulfilled in Christ? And that this was through His death? Did Christ die back in the Garden of Eden? He would have had to, in order for your statement to be true.

Furthermore, your teaching cancels out Scripture itself.

Note that under the New Covenant God says "I will no longer remember their sins and iniquities? No go back to verse one and see that this is not the case while men were under the Covenant of Law. That is why they continually offered up the sacrifice of animals.


18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


The difference between being under the New Covenant and the Covenant of Law is this: our sins have been forgiven completely—forever.

Do you really want to deny that Jesus Christ was Himself under the Covenant of Law when He came to fulfill this promise?


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Note there is a point in time when God decided the fullness of time had come. When was that? When He sent His Son, of course. Not a moment before.

Note that He was made of a woman, and—made under the Law.

Note that He came to redeem men from the Law. What it is saying is that men needed to be redeemed from the Covenant of Law, JF. Now take that a little further, and understand that not only did those who were under the Law in Christ's time (and they were), but those prior to the establishment of the Law were also in need of Redemption.

Lastly, I would mention the Promise of the Spirit referred to by Christ to the disciples in Acts 1:4-5: they had not received the promise of the Father, defined by Christ as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

In Galatians 4:6 we see that When God sent His Son to redeem them that were under Law (and that is everyone, because that was the economy in force at that time), He did so that we might receive the adoption of sons.

That means that no one had yet received this promise.

And because we have received the adoption of sons—God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts.

That is the New Birth, my friend. It wasn't taking place prior to "the fullness of times," when God sent forth His Son.

And that is the fulfillment of God's promise to establish the New Covenant. how you could even suggest that "all who have ever been saved have always been under the New Covenant" displays a great ignorance of the Word of God. And I mean—that which is basic. If you have friends here and they have not corrected you about this kind of error, then believe me—they aren't your friends.

God bless.

 

[JesusFan]

Okay, I will show you why you are in error here JF, and I hope you will take it in the way it is intended: as a means of helping you better understand why you are a "fan" of Jesus Christ. These responses are given in love, meant to help my brethren, not hurt them.

You say that "All ever saved were under the New Covenant of grace."

That is error easily shown to be error.


Jeremiah 31:31-34 King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


The days that would come when the New Testament would be established had not come before this statement, right? You understand that the nation of Israel was divided and this because they broke the Covenant of Law?

That they were under the Covenant of Law?

And that they were still under the Covenant of Law when Messiah came?

Now let's jump to the First Century:


Hebrews 10 King James Version

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Beginning in the Garden, the sacrifice of animals for the "covering" of sin began. Abel did it, Noah did it, Abraham did it, Jacob did it, and when the Covenant of Law was established, you guessed it—animals died when it was established.

But note here that the sacrifices of the Law could not make men perfect (complete in regards to remission of sins, v.1) because it could not take away sins (v.4). In view is both a literal taking away of sins as well as taking away the penalty for sins.



5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


This refers to God the Son manifesting in flesh (See Hebrews 1:1-2). God has never been pleased about vicarious sacrifice for the remission of sins, but in His mercy He allowed animals to die in the place of the sinner. The wages of sin is death. Always has been, always will be while there is this physical creation. Even in the Millennial Kingdom (I throw that in for the amils here, lol).

God was not pleased with the sacrifices of the Law (v.8), but He bestowed remission of sins for it anyway. That was the prescribed method beginning with Adam.


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

We, those who are partakers of the New Covenant, are sanctified (set apart unto God) by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ—once for al (v.10)l. Forever. That is what that means.

When did Christ offer Himself up? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't while the Law was in force (Galatians 4:4-6).

We see the contrast between the work of the Levitical Priesthood and the Work of Christ. They had to continually offer up for sin because as it states in the beginning of the Chapter—the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin, or the penalty of sin.

But here's the Good News, JF:

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

In other words, those of us who have been sanctified by the Offering of Christ (His death in our stead) have been made complete in regards to remission of sins—forever.

Now here is a concept you haven't seemed to grasp yet, and that is Promise. When we go back to Jeremiah 31:31-34 we see God promising Israel a New Covenant. The Covenant you claim "all who have ever been saved were under." You don't receive a promise until the promise is fulfilled. And it is Christ Who fulfilled the Promise.

Consider carefully the next statements:


15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


Do you see that the Promise of the New Covenant is said be fulfilled in Christ? And that this was through His death? Did Christ die back in the Garden of Eden? He would have had to, in order for your statement to be true.

Furthermore, your teaching cancels out Scripture itself.

Note that under the New Covenant God says "I will no longer remember their sins and iniquities? No go back to verse one and see that this is not the case while men were under the Covenant of Law. That is why they continually offered up the sacrifice of animals.


18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


The difference between being under the New Covenant and the Covenant of Law is this: our sins have been forgiven completely—forever.

Do you really want to deny that Jesus Christ was Himself under the Covenant of Law when He came to fulfill this promise?


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Note there is a point in time when God decided the fullness of time had come. When was that? When He sent His Son, of course. Not a moment before.

Note that He was made of a woman, and—made under the Law.

Note that He came to redeem men from the Law. What it is saying is that men needed to be redeemed from the Covenant of Law, JF. Now take that a little further, and understand that not only did those who were under the Law in Christ's time (and they were), but those prior to the establishment of the Law were also in need of Redemption.

Lastly, I would mention the Promise of the Spirit referred to by Christ to the disciples in Acts 1:4-5: they had not received the promise of the Father, defined by Christ as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

In Galatians 4:6 we see that When God sent His Son to redeem them that were under Law (and that is everyone, because that was the economy in force at that time), He did so that we might receive the adoption of sons.

That means that no one had yet received this promise.

And because we have received the adoption of sons—God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts.

That is the New Birth, my friend. It wasn't taking place prior to "the fullness of times," when God sent forth His Son.

And that is the fulfillment of God's promise to establish the New Covenant. how you could even suggest that "all who have ever been saved have always been under the New Covenant" displays a great ignorance of the Word of God. And I mean—that which is basic. If you have friends here and they have not corrected you about this kind of error, then believe me—they aren't your friends.

God bless.

God ONLY basis to Ever save any sinner was thru the Cross of Christ, and was always saved by grace alone thru faith alone!

 

[Darrell C]

God ONLY basis to Ever save any sinner was thru the Cross of Christ, and was always saved by grace alone thru faith alone!

Is there an echo in here?

Already agreed: all men who will be saved have always been saved by grace through faith.

Yet while the Cross of Christ is indeed the means by which men receive Eternal Redemption (Hebrews 9:12), the Old Testament Saint did not receive Eternal Redemption while they were alive.

These all died in faith—not receiving the promises.

They (the Old Testament Saints) were saved. As saved as you and I. But they were not born again.

The idea that the Atonement was applied to all men and women of faith throughout Biblical History is denied by Scripture itself.

I am sorry you are not able to grasp that, JF, really. When you are able to understand these things it will do nothing but increase the joy of your salvation.


God bless.

 

[KenH]

Actually, you are witnessing Christ opening the Scripture and revealing to them at that time what passages were relevant to Messiah, and how they were fulfilled in Himself.

Absolutely. The Bible is all about Christ - from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

 

[KenH]

The idea that the Atonement was applied to all men and women of faith throughout Biblical History is denied by Scripture itself.

Huh? Are you saying that someone can be saved without Christ having had their sins imputed to Him and Christ having paid for their sin debt? I hope you are just not making yourself clear.

 

[Darrell C]

Absolutely. The Bible is all about Christ - from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

I agree: the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of Prophecy.

That doesn't negate the Mystery of the Gospel.

So answer the question, can a man be born again and not be indwelt by God according to the prophecy of Christ here:

John 14:15-23
King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Huh? Are you saying that someone can be saved without Christ having had their sins imputed to Him and Christ having paid for their sin debt?

Now you're getting it.

Are you saying the sins of the Old Testament Saint were imputed to Christ before He was on the Cross?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I hope you are just not making yourself clear.

Ahem, uh, I think that is a given ...

 

[KenH]

Are you saying the sins of the Old Testament Saint were imputed to Christ before He was on the Cross?

They were imputed to Him at the cross. God is eternal. We are limited by time. Once God elected people and gave them to Christ before the world began their salvation was a done deal and worked out in time(from our perspective, but God knows the end from the beginning). Election way back before the world began, calling happens in time.

 

[KenH]

So answer the question, can a man be born again and not be indwelt by God according to the prophecy of Christ here:

Every elect person saved has always been saved the same way - by their sins being imputed to Christ(whose sin debt He paid) and Christ's perfect righteousness being imputed to them. In time, each one hears the gospel, is given ears to hear, is regenerated by the Holy Spirit and made spiritually alive, granted the gift of repentance toward God and faith toward Christ, and preserved until their sojourn on this earth is completed.

 

[Darrell C]

They were imputed to Him at the cross

Great. Where's the Scripture on that.

And what are you going to do with the many various Scriptures already given to you showing that is false?

Let's look at a couple of them:

Hebrews 11:11-13 KJV

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39-39 KJV

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Hebrews 9:11-12 King James Version

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Why do you think Scripture declares "There is none righteous, no, not one?"

Because from the eternal perspective their sins had not yet been atoned for.


Romans 3:23-26
King James Version

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

God is eternal. We are limited by time. Once God elected people and gave them to Christ before the world began their salvation was a done deal and worked out in time(from our perspective).

Great. Where's your Scripture supporting that.

And what are you going to do with the Scripture that denies it?

Election way back before the world began, calling happens in time.

What twaddle.




God bless.

 

[KenH]

And what are you going to do with the many various Scriptures already given to you showing that is false?

And what are you going to do with the Scripture that denies it?

There are no such Scriptures that deny the gospel of Christ.

 

[KenH]

@Darrell C

God must deal with man's sin. The reprobates will pay for theirs. The sins of the elect were paid for by Christ.

To stand as holy before God one must have a perfect righteousness. The elect are credited with Christ's perfect righteousness.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[JesusFan]

Now you're getting it.

Are you saying the sins of the Old Testament Saint were imputed to Christ before He was on the Cross?


God bless.

Am saying that God the father knew that the Cross was already a done deal from eternity past to Him and gave them credit for what was yet to come!

 

[JesusFan]

There are no such Scriptures that deny the gospel of Christ.

He is coming from a Dispy salvation theology viewpoint, and I am from a baptist Covenant theology one!

 

[Darrell C]

You did everything but answer the question. Here it is again:

So answer the question, can a man be born again and not be indwelt by God according to the prophecy of Christ here:

John 14:15-23
King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Every elect person saved has always been saved the same way - by their sins being imputed to Christ(whose sin debt He paid)

Just not a Biblical teaching.

It is true every man has been saved the same way, by grace through faith, but, the Old Testament Saints died not having received remission of sins on an eternal basis. They died not having received the promises.

Look, if you're not going to take this discussion seriously, why are you interjecting? Address the Scripture and points raised so far.

and Christ's perfect righteousness being imputed to them.

Doesn't happen until Christ dies. Just a basic Bible truth that interferes with what you want to believe. You have been shown from Scripture, and that you cannot deny.

In time, each one hears the gospel, is given ears to hear,

No one "heard the Gospel"in the Old Testament:


Isaiah 64:4
King James Version

4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

1 Corinthians 2:7-10 King James Version

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.



If you start about halfway through the first chapter and read through the second, you will see that Paul is teaching about the Mystery of the Gospel, and the simple fact is, despite what you want to believe ...

"In time, each one hears the gospel, is given ears to hear"

...they, the Old Testament Saints—did not eyes that saw, nor ears that heard.

It did not enter into their hearts what the glory of Christ would be. They did not understand the riches of the glory of the Gospel, that is—Christ in us.

is regenerated by the Holy Spirit and made spiritually alive,

I agree with this for the most part: when men receive the Holy Ghost they are made alive—for the first time.

granted the gift of repentance toward God and faith toward Christ, and preserved until their sojourn on this earth is completed.

Your on a roll: Repentance is granted by God through the revelation of the Gospel to the hearts of men.

And yes, we are kept by God.

But this ...

Every elect person saved has always been saved the same way - by their sins being imputed to Christ(whose sin debt He paid)

Is in error.

God bless.