Featured Temporal Justification

Doesn't change the fact that we go to be with the Lord:


2 Corinthians 5:6-8 King James Version

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


If you understand the context, you understand Paul is speaking about our spirits being in the earthly body we are now in, and yearning for the heavenly (glorified/redeemed) body made in Heaven. We are absent from the Lord while we are in this body, but present with Him when we are not.

I will jump ahead to another statement you make (since we are in this passage):

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a First Century Doctrine of Paul the Apostle, who is in this statement speaking about being raptured:


2 Corinthians 5:6-8 King James Version

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


He makes the statement that we groan desiring to be clothed with that heavenly body. Not that we should die, but that we would be clothed upon while we are alive. He makes that clear in the next statement:


4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

See that? We groan to be clothed upon. Not that we should die, or in his words, "be unclothed from our earthly tabernacles."

See it? That mortality might be swallowed up of life. "Mortality" cannot be swallowed up of life if one is already dead.

Paul makes the same statement here ...



Romans 8:23 KJV
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


All of Scripture agrees with the Pre-Tribulational Rapture, and none of it agrees with a Mid, Post, or Non-Rapture (which is the absolute worst position).

Please address the OP in the Pre-Tribulational Rapture thread if you feel you can adequately support your position. I can already tell you—can't, lol


Continued...

 

It isn't a matter of whether one is "in God's grace or friendship," it's a matter of whether one is—in Christ.

We who are in Christ have eternal life because we are in Christ and He in us.


John 6:49-54 King James Version

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


The Jews knew that those who were in the Wilderness were dead physically, but they did not know they were dead spiritually.

The only means of spiritual life is God.

The only means of Eternal Life—is the Offering of Jesus Christ.

His flesh and blood refer to His Sacrifice (not Communion). This is just basic to the Doctrine of Christ. Christ came into the world to reconcile men, not "give them a chance to be reconciled to God. And how men obtain eternal life is only through faith in Jesus Christ.

John makes that clear here:


John 3 King James Version

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


You understand that you must be born again—before you can enter the Kingdom of God? Which means if you are not born again in this lifetime you will never see the Kingdom of God.

It has to be taken care of here, Campion. After your spirit is separated from your body—it will be too late. No amount of good works will allow you entrance to the Kingdom of God.

Note that Nicodemus is puzzled. His first question of "how?" is asked. and he gives it, like you, a physical context. The Lord will rebuke him because he should have thought of Ezekiel 36, and Ezekiel 37, where God has promised to Israel that he will make them alive again.

Let's look at Nicodemus' next question of why?:


9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


How can man be born again/from above/of God? How can man enter into the Kingdom of God?

The Lord answers this question:


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


If you are familiar with the Provocation, then you will understand that in the rebellion God sent fiery seprents among the people, and they died physically. He then gives provision, the Brazen Serpent, and whosoever looked to that image was saved from the fiery serpents, and lived (physically).

Men can enter into the Kingdom of God in this lifetime by looking to the Son of God lifted up. Just like the fathers in the Wilderness, it did not require works, simply believing God when He said "look."

And Christ makes that clear in His following Words:



15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


Look, Campion.

Look at the Son of God lifted up.

Look at the Words of Life, by which men shall be saved (Acts 11:13-18).

"The Son of Man must be lifted up (offered in sacrifice upon the Cross) that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Whosoever looks to Christ has eternal life (1 John 5:13).



16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


God sent His Son, that men may have eternal life.

It's right there, my friend.


Continued...

 

Sorry, but eternal life is something we gain while we are yet physically alive:

John contrasts those physically alive that do not have eternal life ...


1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


... with those who do ...


1 John 5:10-13 King James Version

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Just how many times does Scripture have to state that we have life because we believe on Jesus Christ for you to believe it, Campion?

God's "record" of Jesus Christ is that He gave His Son that men might have eternal life. He "gave His Son" by allowing Him to die in our stead for our sin, Campion.

We have life because we have Jesus Christ.

Do you have Jesus Christ, Campion?

Or are you hoping that when you die your works will not be filthy rags before God and you will at that time receive Christ and eternal life?


Continued...

 

These are Tribulation Martyrs, and possibly Old Testament Saints.

There is nothing in Scripture that states Old Testament Saints will be raptured with the Church.

I lean to the view that the Old Testament Saints will be physically resurrected at the end of the Tribulation, because we see...


Matthew 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


What would be a reason this wouldn't happen would be that in the First Resurrection we see the Tribulation Martyrs raised, and we are told "the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years are over."

However, Those who have received are not considered "dead," but alive in Christ. The spirits of the (temporally) just/righteous have also been made perfect/complete in Christ when He died for them:


Hebrews 12:22-24 King James Version

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


They (The Old Testament Saints) were made perfect/complete through the receiving of the promises of the New Covenant. So a reference to being dead and not being raised may refer only to those who are still spiritually dead.

I am not dogmatic on this point yet, though.


Continued...

 

So you believe in the Millennial Kingdom? I'm a little surprised at this. I'm glad, if that's true, lol, but surprised.


Continued...

 

I take a non-traditional view of the Great White Throne, and this is because I believe the record of Scripture concerning the Old Testament Saints: Temporal Justification went on throughout the Old Testament Eras, where men and women (under Law and not under Law, Gentiles as well as Israel) were declared righteous in a temporal context, and died awaiting Eternal Redemption which was obtained when Christ died for them.

I believe it is not only possible, but likely that there will be those at the Great White Throne who will be judged and will, because they obeyed the revelation God provided them, go to Heaven.

I believe Sheol/Hades is still divided between the Just and the Unjust as Christ teaches in Luke 16 (and the teaching is clear whether one believes this is a parable or not; I believe it was not a parable but an actual event). The Just there will have received either the witness of Creation, or the internal witness of God (Romans 1-2), but it will still be a veiled Gospel as the Old Testament Saints received.

This is viewed by some as unorthodox, but we have those who will not have heard the Revealed Gospel (the Gospel was a Mystery, unrevealed in past Ages and Generations) in this Age (hence the reason for missions work, because there are those who still need to hear) and those who, today, still need to hear. I read in an article once where Billy Graham, prior to his death, had come to this same conclusion.

Unborn babies that die in the womb, for example, never had the chance to hear and respond to the Gospel of Christ, but I believe they will benefit from the same grace the Old Testament Saints received. They died not hearing the GOspel revealed to them, yet we know they were declared righteous based on their response to the veiled Gospel. In Abraham's case, he was declared righteous because he believed God would give him a son, and that all nations/families of the earth would be blessed through that seed.

That is why he (Abraham) needed to be made perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins, and the penalty for sin. The last offering for remission of sins he would have offered before dying would have been the blood of an animal. But that was required at that time.

But those "declared righteous" in a temporal context do not receive eternal life, because if you do not believe on the Son of God specifically you will die without receiving that life.

Temporal Justification does not grant remission of sins on an eternal basis.

Temporal Justification does not reconcile one to God.

Temporal Justification does not baptize on into Christ.

Temporal Justification does not grant the eternal indwelling of God.


So we must work to see men delivered from the death they are born into:


John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


How can a man be born again?


John 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


Sure, the temporal works of the born-again believer will be judged, but that is a separate issue from Eternal Judgment.

We have life, and not just life, but Eternal Life, because we are in Him Who is Eternal.


Continued...

 

Again, it's a first-century Doctrine:


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 King James Version

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


The Rapture has the dead in Christ (born-again believers that in Eternal Union with God through the Atonement) rising in glorified form first, then those who are still alive in the Body are raised in glorified bodies.

This is a mystery, a previously unrevealed truth. Darby didn't invent it, Paul revealed it to the Church.

It's right there, Campion.


Continued...

 

In one sense I agree, because the Rapture is not the Second Coming of Christ.

That is why it is called the Rapture, because we are caught up, as opposed to Him returning to earth.

Revelation 19 makes the Return of Christ, the Second Coming—quite clear.

At that time we see Prophecy fulfilled as the Supper of the Great God takes place.

This is the Sheep and Goat Judgment, distinguished from the destruction of the wicked after the thousand years are ended.

It doesn't need to be a secret: God will at that time give strong delusion to the wicked who remain:


2 Thessalonians 2:6-11 King James Version

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:



There will be those who deny the event of the Rapture. Very likely many of them will endorse the Post-Tribulational Rapture. And I am not saying Post-Tribulational believers are not saved, I am just saying that this would be a good argument in that time.

Thanks, again for the response.


God bless.

 

You say the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches:


1 John 5 King James Version

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


The temporal works are mentioned in v.2-3, but they are said to be proof/s of what has taken place in the life of the believer.

Being born of God is a result of believing that Jesus is the Christ (v.1).

Overcoming the world is through being born of God (v.4).

Overcoming the world is due to believing that Jesus is the Son of God.


Nothing in there about being born of God or overcoming the world due to works, my friend.

You are preaching another gospel, and it is false, and it does not agree with Scripture.

I'm not going to continuously address your opinions while you completely ignore the points I am making. Please try to address these points, Cathode.


God bless.

 

I've addressed all of them in detail, Cathode.

Here is an example of that:

You say the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches:


1 John 5 King James Version

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


The temporal works are mentioned in v.2-3, but they are said to be proof/s of what has taken place in the life of the believer.

Being born of God is a result of believing that Jesus is the Christ (v.1).

Overcoming the world is through being born of God (v.4).

Overcoming the world is due to believing that Jesus is the Son of God.


Nothing in there about being born of God or overcoming the world due to works, my friend.

You are preaching another gospel, and it is false, and it does not agree with Scripture.

I'm not going to continuously address your opinions while you completely ignore the points I am making. Please try to address these points, Cathode.

This is in response to your comment ...

You are denying "faith alone" which isn't really something I teach. However, that men are saved by Christ alone and grace alone and that this leads to faith alone is.

I can break this statement down and address it point by point but what is the use? You have ignored every response that I have done that in.

You don't want to have a discussion, you just want to preach the gospel of Cathode, and ignore what the other side has to say.

So why would I bother?

When you can show you are willing to address the points made to you I will resume addressing you false doctrine evangelism. but you have to give to get, amigo.


God bless.

 

Not all of them:


Ephesians 2:14-16 King James Version

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


Hardly an irrelevant issue.

That is why it is written, "...all have fallen short," and "... there is none righteous, no, not one."

Those who replace Israel with the Church have bought into a false system. It is not the Church that the Millennial Kingdom is for, but Israel. That is the fulfillment of the promise of God to restore Israel, which by the way, is found throughout Prophecy. And that didn't change in Christ's teachings.


God bless.

 

Actually, I showed in detail that Paul was hopeful of the Rapture while he was alive. That is the point of "not being unclothed" with the earthly tabernacle. Pretty simple to understand.

The above is not an address of that point.

Tsk, tsk, Campion.

So in other words—it's not your belief.

It's the belief of a man that you agree with what you want to believe. That would be Augustine's belief, and at least, though he was wrong, he embraced that belief through study.

You can't say the same.

Maybe start with my point concerning Paul's desire for the rapture. That will force you to get out of commentaries and into the Word of God.

Again, syllogism.

Augustine denies the Millennial Kingdom.

Campion agrees with Augustine.

Conclusion: there is no rapture.

lol


God bless.