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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, May 10, 2022.

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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Why be offended if you agree with NT Wright on this view, as that does not mean that makes you bad, just wrong in this issue!
    If you do not fully agree with him and the NPP view, where do you \differ then?
     
    #61 JesusFan, May 11, 2022
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It does have an appearance of godliness, but it is very much centered on man and human sin....to the point that man ultimately controls God
     
    #62 JonC, May 11, 2022
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Because I do not know enough of NT Wright's view, except I have read the NPP and (as we have discussed multiple times) do not believe Wright has provided enough to support his view.

    I don't agree with the NPP at all.
     
    #63 JonC, May 11, 2022
  4. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    You really think that we hold that we can control a Holy and sovereign God? NONE here who holds to Calvinism here would be holding to that view that you posted here!
     
    #64 JesusFan, May 11, 2022
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    But you do believe it does teach something.
    So to find out what we are understanding different. How do you understand the passages as to what they actually teach. And how do you understand it different from what you understand of my view?
    We need to correctly understand where and how we disagree.

    We seem to believe the same Scriptures. We need to identify what we agree on. And separate what we disagree on.
     
    #65 37818, May 11, 2022
  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    His take on the atonement and justification that seems to be exactly as the viewpoint that you have posted here though
     
    #66 JesusFan, May 11, 2022
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I don't think you can. I don't think you even realize just how much your theology elevates man. Otherwise you would change your view.
     
    #67 JonC, May 11, 2022
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not from what I have read of the NPP.

    Like I said, you KNOW this because we have discussed it.

    That is why I am surprised you have backslidden into old habits.
     
    #68 JonC, May 11, 2022
  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    How would holding to a sovereign and Holy God then be exalting man?
     
    #69 JesusFan, May 11, 2022
  10. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Do you agree with Wright that God vindicated Jesus, that Jesus died due to the evil of the world and Rome, and that Pauline Justification was not speaking at all to individual salvation then?
    That Jesus died at hands of evil word by sinners, and not due to God the father?
     
    #70 JesusFan, May 11, 2022
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, I do. I believe it teaches that Christ died for us, was made sin, that God laid our iniquities on Him, etc.

    Where we disagree is I do not believe essential doctrines should contain what is not written in the Bible (the highlighter test).

    There is room for interpretation, but we are not even talking about interpretation. We are talking about things that are not there to be interpreted.
     
    #71 JonC, May 11, 2022
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do believe that God vindicated Christ, raised Him on the third day and gave Him a name that is above every name. I believe He sits at the right hand of the Father.

    I also believe that Christ suffered and died at the hands of the wicked, by the predetermined will of God.

    I also believe that the Jews handed Christ over to the Romans to be crucified.

    If that is the NPP then I'm ok with it.

    But Wright seems to take the fact Christ died on a Roman cross to a level he cannot defend (about what it meant to the first century Jews).

    AND YOU KNOW I reject the idea that justification is not speaking about individuals. WE HAVE DISCUSSED THIS AT LENGTH.
     
    #72 JonC, May 11, 2022
  13. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Just saying here that you do agree with the framework of the Cross and the Atonement held by them
     
    #73 JesusFan, May 11, 2022
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! John this shows you CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about at all!
     
    #74 Reformed1689, May 11, 2022
  15. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Thought real man centered salvation theology would be with full free will gospel advocates and those who deny the real effects of the fall towards us?
     
    #75 JesusFan, May 11, 2022
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Well, everything I listed is in the Bible, so yea....I believe it.

    Why don't you?

    You reject that Christ died at the hands of the wicked by the predetermined plan of God?

    You reject that God vindicated Christ (raised Him on the 3rd day, gave Him a name above every name, that He is seated at the right hand of the Father)?

    You reject that Christ freed us from the bondage of sin and death?

    If not, by your standard, your view mirrors the NPP.
     
    #76 JonC, May 11, 2022
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Pointing out errors in free-will theology does not erase the errors of Calvinism.
     
    #77 JonC, May 11, 2022
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't trust you to point out "errors" in Calvinism since you somehow believe Calvinism is "man centered" and makes man control God. Oh brother...
     
    #78 Reformed1689, May 11, 2022
  19. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    I reject that jests died simply due to evil world and evil men, as his death was predetermined and ordained by the Father himself

    I reject that his vindication is primary aspect of the Cross, as that was Atonement and justification of his own people

    I reject that God the father can just say your sins have been forgiven, without the psa giving to Him the very basis to be able to now declare us righteous in Christ

    Yes, i do see Pauline Justification as the reformers did, and MANY baptists such as Spurgeon, and reject the views of Wright and the Npp!
     
    #79 JesusFan, May 11, 2022
  20. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Do you hold the Psa view as being the central "error" held by Calvinists then?
     
    #80 JesusFan, May 11, 2022
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