Why be offended if you agree with NT Wright on this view, as that does not mean that makes you bad, just wrong in this issue!
If you do not fully agree with him and the NPP view, where do you \differ then?
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Continued from dead tulip
- Thread starter JonC
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If you do not fully agree with him and the NPP view, where do you \differ then?
It does have an appearance of godliness, but it is very much centered on man and human sin....to the point that man ultimately controls God
Because I do not know enough of NT Wright's view, except I have read the NPP and (as we have discussed multiple times) do not believe Wright has provided enough to support his view.
I don't agree with the NPP at all.
You really think that we hold that we can control a Holy and sovereign God? NONE here who holds to Calvinism here would be holding to that view that you posted here!
37818
Well-Known Member
But you do believe it does teach something.
So to find out what we are understanding different. How do you understand the passages as to what they actually teach. And how do you understand it different from what you understand of my view?
We need to correctly understand where and how we disagree.
We seem to believe the same Scriptures. We need to identify what we agree on. And separate what we disagree on.
His take on the atonement and justification that seems to be exactly as the viewpoint that you have posted here though
I don't think you can. I don't think you even realize just how much your theology elevates man. Otherwise you would change your view.
Not from what I have read of the NPP.
Like I said, you KNOW this because we have discussed it.
That is why I am surprised you have backslidden into old habits.
How would holding to a sovereign and Holy God then be exalting man?
Do you agree with Wright that God vindicated Jesus, that Jesus died due to the evil of the world and Rome, and that Pauline Justification was not speaking at all to individual salvation then?
That Jesus died at hands of evil word by sinners, and not due to God the father?
Yes, I do. I believe it teaches that Christ died for us, was made sin, that God laid our iniquities on Him, etc.
Where we disagree is I do not believe essential doctrines should contain what is not written in the Bible (the highlighter test).
There is room for interpretation, but we are not even talking about interpretation. We are talking about things that are not there to be interpreted.
I do believe that God vindicated Christ, raised Him on the third day and gave Him a name that is above every name. I believe He sits at the right hand of the Father.
I also believe that Christ suffered and died at the hands of the wicked, by the predetermined will of God.
I also believe that the Jews handed Christ over to the Romans to be crucified.
If that is the NPP then I'm ok with it.
But Wright seems to take the fact Christ died on a Roman cross to a level he cannot defend (about what it meant to the first century Jews).
AND YOU KNOW I reject the idea that justification is not speaking about individuals. WE HAVE DISCUSSED THIS AT LENGTH.
Just saying here that you do agree with the framework of the Cross and the Atonement held by them
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! John this shows you CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about at all!
Thought real man centered salvation theology would be with full free will gospel advocates and those who deny the real effects of the fall towards us?
Well, everything I listed is in the Bible, so yea....I believe it.
Why don't you?
You reject that Christ died at the hands of the wicked by the predetermined plan of God?
You reject that God vindicated Christ (raised Him on the 3rd day, gave Him a name above every name, that He is seated at the right hand of the Father)?
You reject that Christ freed us from the bondage of sin and death?
If not, by your standard, your view mirrors the NPP.
Pointing out errors in free-will theology does not erase the errors of Calvinism.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't trust you to point out "errors" in Calvinism since you somehow believe Calvinism is "man centered" and makes man control God. Oh brother...
I reject that jests died simply due to evil world and evil men, as his death was predetermined and ordained by the Father himself
I reject that his vindication is primary aspect of the Cross, as that was Atonement and justification of his own people
I reject that God the father can just say your sins have been forgiven, without the psa giving to Him the very basis to be able to now declare us righteous in Christ
Yes, i do see Pauline Justification as the reformers did, and MANY baptists such as Spurgeon, and reject the views of Wright and the Npp!
Do you hold the Psa view as being the central "error" held by Calvinists then?
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