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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, May 10, 2022.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    1 Peter 2:21-25
    For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
     
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  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 53:4-12
    Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.
     
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  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 9:24-28
    For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
     
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 15:16-17 is post PSA. Christ's physical death on the cross is post PSA. .John 19:28 is post PSA. PSA is an understanding of the meanings of texts, such as Isaiah 53:6.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    His soul died on the cross. And He remained conscious. Psalms 22:1.
     
  6. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    Where does it say His soul died?
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I KNEW IT!!! :D

    ...you just had too much fun here to leave for good :)
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I as a practice do not believe in paraphrasing God's Word, only explaining what is not understood.

    Christ bore our sins bodily. Scripture explains Scripture. Christ being made sin for us, God giving Him as a guilt offering, Christ "sharing our infirmities", Christ being made a curse for us, Christ being made like us in all things, Christ dying for our sins, Christ dying for us, Christ dying by the wicked by the will of God . . .

    If you cannot grasp all of those explanations then I certainly cannot offer you help.

    I would simply paraphrase it as Christ bore our sins.


    What you are looking for is extra-biblical philosophy discussing Christ being made sin for us. Why? Is Scripture really not enough for you to build your doctrines?
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    sopranos.jpg
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not until you provide a passage.

    What you need the do is determine if what I believe is contrary to God's Word, not contrary to your faith.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Except PSA is not supported by Scripture.
     
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Jon, I provide scripture, therefore your claim here is bogus.

    Be honest, you take these scripture passages and apply them/interpret them in a way that tosses out 2000 years of theology in favor of your own personal, self-created theology.

    Everyone has read your empty claims and almost everyone has rejected your personal theology as having no merit. Own this reality instead of blaming and claiming.
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I provided de Scripture as well.....therefore your claim is bogus.

    The issue is the Scripture you provide has nothing to do with PSA.

    I could say "John 3:16, hamburgers are good". Just saying a verse does not make the opinion true.
     
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    LOL. It's a good thing the Ethiopian Eunuch met Philip and not you in the desert! :Laugh

    Jon: Understandest thou what thou readest?

    Eunuch: How can I, except some man should guide me?

    Jon: If you cannot grasp my mere repetition of the words you don't understand, I can't help you.

    And the Eunuch went away and died in his sins, for Jon was too holy to put the doctrine into other words.
    :Roflmao

    So, again, if you understand those words, and aren't hiding behind pedantry to avoiding the unavoidable conclusions, you could tell us what YOU mean, when you repeat them. And yet you refuse to do so.

    So, I ask again, O devout one. What does it mean?
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    You provided it yourself.
    In the guilt offering, we clearly see sin being paid for in the sacrifice.

    You are denying Christ to say He did not die to pay for our sins.
     
  16. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Sixhour warning

    This thread will be closed no sooner than 6 pm EDT /3 pm PDT
     
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  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Just when some substantive arguments were being made. I swear, this rule is about allowing noncalvinists a way of escape.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. Philip the explained the passage in reference to what had occurred (Philip couldn't pull out the NT).

    You are assuming Philip did as you and say Scripture says this but means that.

    We have the NT. We can see how redemption history unfolded beyond the OT. That is what Philip did - "Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus".

    That is not what you are doing.
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Who?
     
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