Continued from dead tulip

[AustinC]

It's not silly at all. If you can't paraphrase or explain what something means, then you don't understand it.

Either that, or you're trying to avoid the eminent conclusion.

In another place the Spirit says Christ bore our sins. What does it mean to bear them? What was God doing with them?

1 Peter 2:21-25
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

 

[AustinC]

1 Peter 2:21-25
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Isaiah 53:4-12
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

 

[AustinC]

Isaiah 53:4-12
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Hebrews 9:24-28
For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

 

[37818]

We are back into presuppositions.

Christ died not pay for our sins. He became a curse for us, bore our sins bodily, and we are purchased by His blood.

I do not see how the passage you provide supports the idea that Christ died twice (or two deaths).

1 Corinthians 15:16–17 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:16-17 is post PSA. Christ's physical death on the cross is post PSA. .John 19:28 is post PSA. PSA is an understanding of the meanings of texts, such as Isaiah 53:6.

 

[37818]

1 Peter 3:18 does not support the false teaching that Christ died a spiritual death. Did he suffer God's wrath due to those who will believe? Yes. The cross contained both spiritual and physical horrors, but at no time did Christ die spiritually.

His soul died on the cross. And He remained conscious. Psalms 22:1.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

His soul died on the cross. And He remained conscious. Psalms 22:1.

Where does it say His soul died?

 

[kyredneck]

What is this Two death business?

I KNEW IT!!!

...you just had too much fun here to leave for good

 

[JonC]

It's not silly at all. If you can't paraphrase or explain what something means, then you don't understand it.

Either that, or you're trying to avoid the eminent conclusion.

In another place the Spirit says Christ bore our sins. What does it mean to bear them? What was God doing with them?

I as a practice do not believe in paraphrasing God's Word, only explaining what is not understood.

Christ bore our sins bodily. Scripture explains Scripture. Christ being made sin for us, God giving Him as a guilt offering, Christ "sharing our infirmities", Christ being made a curse for us, Christ being made like us in all things, Christ dying for our sins, Christ dying for us, Christ dying by the wicked by the will of God . . .

If you cannot grasp all of those explanations then I certainly cannot offer you help.

I would simply paraphrase it as Christ bore our sins.


What you are looking for is extra-biblical philosophy discussing Christ being made sin for us. Why? Is Scripture really not enough for you to build your doctrines?

 

[JonC]

I KNEW IT!!!

...you just had too much fun here to leave for good

 

[JonC]

And just for the record, this is pretty much an apostate position.

Not until you provide a passage.

What you need the do is determine if what I believe is contrary to God's Word, not contrary to your faith.

 

[JonC]

1 Corinthians 15:16-17 is post PSA. Christ's physical death on the cross is post PSA. .John 19:28 is post PSA. PSA is an understanding of the meanings of texts, such as Isaiah 53:6.

Except PSA is not supported by Scripture.

 

[AustinC]

Except PSA is not supported by Scripture.

Jon, I provide scripture, therefore your claim here is bogus.

Be honest, you take these scripture passages and apply them/interpret them in a way that tosses out 2000 years of theology in favor of your own personal, self-created theology.

Everyone has read your empty claims and almost everyone has rejected your personal theology as having no merit. Own this reality instead of blaming and claiming.

 

[JonC]

Jon, I provide scripture, therefore your claim here is bogus.

Be honest, you take these scripture passages and apply them/interpret them in a way that tosses out 2000 years of theology in favor of your own personal, self-created theology.

Everyone has read your empty claims and almost everyone has rejected your personal theology as having no merit. Own this reality instead of blaming and claiming.

I provided de Scripture as well.....therefore your claim is bogus.

The issue is the Scripture you provide has nothing to do with PSA.

I could say "John 3:16, hamburgers are good". Just saying a verse does not make the opinion true.

 

[Aaron]

I as a practice do not believe in paraphrasing God's Word, only explaining what is not understood.

Christ bore our sins bodily. Scripture explains Scripture. Christ being made sin for us, God giving Him as a guilt offering, Christ "sharing our infirmities", Christ being made a curse for us, Christ being made like us in all things, Christ dying for our sins, Christ dying for us, Christ dying by the wicked by the will of God . . .

If you cannot grasp all of those explanations then I certainly cannot offer you help.

I would simply paraphrase it as Christ bore our sins.


What you are looking for is extra-biblical philosophy discussing Christ being made sin for us. Why? Is Scripture really not enough for you to build your doctrines?

LOL. It's a good thing the Ethiopian Eunuch met Philip and not you in the desert!

Jon: Understandest thou what thou readest?

Eunuch: How can I, except some man should guide me?

Jon: If you cannot grasp my mere repetition of the words you don't understand, I can't help you.

And the Eunuch went away and died in his sins, for Jon was too holy to put the doctrine into other words.
​

So, again, if you understand those words, and aren't hiding behind pedantry to avoiding the unavoidable conclusions, you could tell us what YOU mean, when you repeat them. And yet you refuse to do so.

So, I ask again, O devout one. What does it mean?

 

[Aaron]

Not until you provide a passage.

What you need the do is determine if what I believe is contrary to God's Word, not contrary to your faith.

You provided it yourself.

Christ being made sin for us, God giving Him as a guilt offering

In the guilt offering, we clearly see sin being paid for in the sacrifice.

You are denying Christ to say He did not die to pay for our sins.

 

[Salty]

Sixhour warning

This thread will be closed no sooner than 6 pm EDT /3 pm PDT

 

[37818]

Where does it say His soul died?

Isaiah 53:12, Isaiah 53:10. Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45.
John 10:11-18.
John 15:13.
For PSA Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 6:23, Romans 5:8. Was completed per John 19:28.

 

[Aaron]

Sixhour warning

This thread will be closed no sooner than 6 pm EDT /3 pm PDT

Just when some substantive arguments were being made. I swear, this rule is about allowing noncalvinists a way of escape.

 

[JonC]

LOL. It's a good thing the Ethiopian Eunuch met Philip and not you in the desert!

Jon: Understandest thou what thou readest?

Eunuch: How can I, except some man should guide me?

Jon: If you cannot grasp my mere repetition of the words you don't understand, I can't help you.

And the Eunuch went away and died in his sins, for Jon was too holy to put the doctrine into other words.
​

So, again, if you understand those words, and aren't hiding behind pedantry to avoiding the unavoidable conclusions, you could tell us what YOU mean, when you repeat them. And yet you refuse to do so.

So, I ask again, O devout one. What does it mean?

No. Philip the explained the passage in reference to what had occurred (Philip couldn't pull out the NT).

You are assuming Philip did as you and say Scripture says this but means that.

We have the NT. We can see how redemption history unfolded beyond the OT. That is what Philip did - "Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus".

That is not what you are doing.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So would you put yourself in the Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin, Tony Evans camp of free grace (or cheap grace as some call it)? One is saved even if there are no signs of rebirth? Jesus said go forth and make disciples, not converts. It follows that when one sees the grievousness of their sins and their need for Christ leading to faith, then they no longer want to live in sin. Preaching the fruit of the Spirit, or works, is not legalism, it is a byproduct of rebirth created by the Holy Spirit. MacArthur simply says that if you are truly born again there will be evidence. The parable of the soils is a good example.

Who?