Spiritual Truth and Doctrine II: The Meaning of Reconciliation

[Silverhair]

And that is exactly how I take it. There really isn't any other way to take it, lol.

Again, the reason for quoting that particular verse is to show that despite the fact that it states "the world," and that "the world might be saved" through the Cross of Christ doesn't mean that the Cross would save the (entirety of) the world.

In the same way, that God "was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself" doesn't mean that the entirety of the world was reconciled when God was in Christ reconciling.

He was in Christ to make the means of reconciliation available. The promise of the New Covenant was only promise and not fulfilled until Christ actually made the Offering that reconciliation, remission of sin, justification, and Union with God could be made everlasting, as opposed to the temporary and temporal quality of the provision given to men in the Old Testament.


God bless.

I understand what you are saying and for the most part agree.

God made it possible for all to be saved through Christ Jesus but not all will be saved. God was reconciling the world to Himself through His Son. What I am saying is that reconciliation does not bring about salvation rather it is because we have trusted in His Son that we are saved and now have a right relationship with God.

Aaron has put the cart before the horse so to speak.

 

[Silverhair]

It is when we trust Christ. It is not, as some teach, something that has been applied in the past. Men are responsible to turn to Christ in faith when God ministers the Gospel to their hearts. It is at that point they receive Christ, are placed in Christ, and receive reconciliation.


God bless.

I fully agree with what you just said, that is the point I have been trying to make. Not doing it very well it would seem.

 

[Revmitchell]

I have always consistently said that no man is saved prior to God's intervention.

I have consistently taught that in this Age it is the Comforter that enlightens the natural man's understanding that he can believe and then have faith (in that order).

I have consistently said that the natural man has no inherent ability to receive or perceive the spiritual things of GOd.

So where's the beef?






No need to be sorry, we all make mistakes.

So let's look at yours: Was Paul speaking to spiritual men (saved) or not?

Paul's point is that they are behaving carnally. Not that they were unsaved and couldn't understand.

If we take your advice and read chs.1-3 we see an amazing thing: Paul is teaching on the Mystery of the Gospel. In chapter two he teaches that understanding about Christ was withheld from men in the past and is now revealed to men by the Holy Ghost. This is the same thing Peter writes in 1 Peter 1:10-12. Men understand and preach the Gospel due to the Holy Ghost that was sent down from Heaven, the Comforter.

So, again, where's the beef?





I disagree with that: I do not believe men and women can be born again through general revelation. Neither the testimony of God or the internal witness of GOd in the hearts of all who are born will result in Eternal Redemption.

Eternal Redemption and everything that accompanies that (Reconciliation, Remission of sins on an eternal basis, and Eternal Justification based on the righteousness of Christ achieved on the Cross) is a result of hearing the Gospel while having our hearts ministered to by the Comforter that we might understand and recognize the reality of our sin, His righteousness, and our destiny apart from Him.

At no time have I ever suggested that the false view of the modern-day "Free Will" espousers is a legitimate doctrine.

Never.

So where's the beef?


God bless.

I was very clear in my post. Unfortunately you have corrupted my words. God Bless

 

[Silverhair]

The point is the meaning of reconciliation. It means brought back into union.

Romans 6:3

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

So, it's those who make a confession that are reconciled. No one is reconciled by default.

From Gods' perspective man is reconciled to Him through the death of His Son. From the perspective of man we are reconciled to God through our faith in the risen Christ Jesus.

Man hears and believes the gospel, confesses that Christ Jesus is Lord and God saves him because of that confession. Because the man is saved he now is reconciled, is in a right relationship, with God.
We are saved so we can have a right relationship with God, we do not have a right relationship with God so that can be saved.

 

[Aaron]

So I would ask, if you want to maintain consistency with this line of reasoning: if we were in Adam and that means somehow that we shared in a relationship with God and that this is what is being reconciled, wouldn't you also have to equally conclude that Eternal Salvation can be lost?

That is the logical conclusion of that line of reasoning.

If Adam had Eternal Life and lost it, the conclusion is Eternal Salvation can be lost, and that view conflicts with the clear teachings of Scripture.


God bless.

No, Adam didn't have eternal life, but he was good and upright, and was the son God. Luke 3:38 .

He was alive and not bound for hell.

But it doesn't much matter what you think about what our being in Adam means, and how it foreshadows our being in Christ.

To be reconciled means to be brought into a right relationship. It doesn't matter if you think of it as a first meeting or a reunion. We are called lost sheep, seeming to imply that we were originally in the fold. It is said we have gone astray, seeming to imply we were originally on track.

There is the parable of the Prodigal Son, the Lost Coin, the Ten Virgins (which, by the way, justifies the marriage reference).

If we were restored to a right relationship with God by the death of one who cannot die ( unlike Adam ) how much more of a relationship it is by virtue of Who it was that died, yet cannot die.

Not merely restored to our original state, that is not merely remade in His image, like Adam, but begotten of God. True sons, partakers of the Divine Nature, eternal. Incorruptible. Unable to fall.

 

[Aaron]

From Gods' perspective man is reconciled to Him through the death of His Son. From the perspective of man we are reconciled to God through our faith in the risen Christ Jesus.

Man hears and believes the gospel, confesses that Christ Jesus is Lord and God saves him because of that confession. Because the man is saved he now is reconciled, is in a right relationship, with God.
We are saved so we can have a right relationship with God, we do not have a right relationship with God so that can be saved.

You must abandon the notion that the unsaved are reconciled. You render the blood of the Cross ineffectual. There is no act of God that does not yield the intended fruit.

You believe in Limited Atonement, you just make man the limiter.

Christ did not die to give man sovereignty in salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

You must abandon the notion that the unsaved are reconciled. You render the blood of the Cross ineffectual. There is no act of God that does not yield the intended fruit.

You believe in Limited Atonement, you just make man the limiter.

Christ did not die to give man sovereignty in salvation.

You must start dealing with the text of the bible. You may not like what the bible says but you have to accept what it says.

Man does not save himself, rather God saves man because they fulfill the condition that God has set for salvation. Faith in His Son.

 

[Aaron]

You must start dealing with the text of the bible. You may not like what the bible says but you have to accept what it says.

Correct.

Man does not save himself, rather God saves man...

Correct.

...because they fulfill the condition that God has set for salvation. Faith in His Son.

IOW, because there's something good in them.

Incorrect.

 

[Darrell C]

Just wanted to first say this is an excellent response, Silverhair. Every point correlated to Scripture.

The text of the bible is really clear
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

The "we" are those who have been saved. In other words, "If we can be placed in such a dire situation by a mere man, how much more can the Son of God correct that condition?"

Through the atonement a relationship of peace with mankind is established which was prior to this prevented by the demands of Gods' justice.
We see this foreshadowed in the sacrifice laws found in Leviticus. The sacrifices did not save anyone but they did bring them back into a peaceful relationship with God.

This is where I would have to disagree, Silverhair: I don't view Reconciliation to be applied to those who are still lost. You say yourself, "Christ Jesus died for sinners so that we could be reconciled to God."

So that men could be reconciled, not that all men have been reconciled. You also end your post with, "And why would it be necessary for Paul to implore people to be reconciled to God?"

I agree: Paul is beseeching men to be reconciled because they have not been reconciled.

You asked the question "do you believe reconciliation applies to all men?" My question for you is do you not think that it applies to all men?
2Co 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself

Correct, making the means of reconciliation to God possible, just as He was making it possible for men to have eternal/everlasting life. He had to die so that men could be reconciled through Eternal Union with God.

Are not all men sinners, ungodly, without strength?

Yes. What is interesting to note is that this charge is laid upon those of the Old Testament that were declared righteous/justified. Even among them, there was not a single man righteous. No, not one.

Therein lies the magnitude of the Cross: what Christ came to do was something He (God) had never done before.

These are terms that the bible uses to describe all men prior to being in Christ.
Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

I agree wholeheartedly.


I am having an issue with the Forum: it isn't letting me post, saying it's over 10,000 words when I know it isn't, lol. So going to try a smaller portion than I have been trying.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Christ Jesus died for sinners so that we could be reconciled to God. We are all sinners so you would have to conclude that He died for all men.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

And I take that position, that His salvation is made available to all men, and that the reason why men will not be saved is that by their own decision they reject Christ.

Concerning the past Ages and Eras and Generations, men were justified in a temporal context, and if they were justified during their lifetimes they were what we might call "saved," and their eternal destinies secured, but—they died awaiting Eternal Redemption.

Eternal Redemption was obtained by Christ through His Work. Eternal Redemption alone includes the eternal indwelling of God (John 14:15-23), the believer placed in Christ (Galatians 3:27; Acts 1:4-5; Acts 11:13-18), remission of sins on an eternal basis (Hebrews 10:14), and regeneration (John 3:9-16).

When He accomplishes those things in us we are reconciled. Thus it is proper to say "reconciliation is salvation."

When Paul beseeched men to be reconciled, he is beseeching them to be saved:


2 Corinthians 5:17-21 King James Version

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Those who are reconciled are new creatures. We are something that men were not in the Old Testament, and something that is new to Creation.

We "reconcile" men to God in our ministry, understanding that we ourselves do not "save" men, but that God works through us as He worked through Christ. God is the Reconciler. He is the Author and Finisher (Completer) of faith. Men cannot have faith apart from God's intervention, and in this Age that intervention is by means of the Ministry of the Comforter:


John 16:7-9 King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


The Comforter (the Spirit of grace and truth) is the One that brings conviction in the heart of the natural man. It is within that ministry that natural men can perceive the spiritual things of God, namely the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the point of 1 Corinthians 1:18 all the way through to 1 Corinthians Chapter 2 (meaning the whole Chapter). That God is now revealing the Mystery of the Gospel to men through the Holy Spirit in the Ministry of Comforter.

When Paul quotes ...


1 Corinthians 2:9 King James Version

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


... he is saying that men did not understand the mystery that he and his fellow ministers are preaching. And we can look back and see that. We see it even in Christ's ministry as the people react to His teaching based on the expectation of a temporal kingdom. That is why Peter tries to stop the Cross from happening: because he simply doesn't realize the necessity of the Cross.

We are also told that we can be saved from Gods' wrath through Christ Jesus.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Correct. I believe this is a reference to eternal damnation. While it is true (meaning the view I take from my own studies) that we will not go through the wrath of the Tribulation (which is a judgment for Israel), ultimately "wrath" speaks of eternal judment.

Further we are told that the death of Christ Jesus is the means of reconciliation with God and that it is through our trust in the risen Christ that saves us.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Again, I agree completely.

This is a great verse to cross-reference on the issue of being enemies. We were enemies prior to being in Christ, but being reconciled we are now sons of GOd.

Those who are not yet reconciled are still enemies:


Romans 11:27-29 King James Version

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


This is a reference to Israel. They are enemies because they have rejected Christ on a national basis (He came unto His Own, and His Own received Him not).

However, Paul makes it clear there is a future fulfillment of God's promises in regards to Israel on a national basis.


1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Philippians 3:18
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Colossians 1:21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Hebrews 1:13
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 10:13
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.


Until one is reconciled to God through Eternal Redemption they remain the enemies of God.

That doesn't mean that God does not have mercy on His enemies, lol. Does He not instruct that the will of God is that we love our enemies? Did God not so love the world that He sent His Son to die, that we might be reconciled?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Now for the universalist they would conclude that since Christ lives then all will be saved but that is not what the bible tells us is it?

Agreed. Universal salvation is false doctrine.

We are saved by God because we believe in the risen Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Correct. It is not a "work" to accept a gift, else it is no longer a gift, but a payment.

Paul tells us what the gift of God is in Romans.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So does Peter:


Acts 11:17-18 King James Version

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Cornelius was saved by the words Peter preached unto him:


11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.


12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:


13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;


14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.


Cornelius was eternally indwelt and baptized into Christ:


15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.


16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


Christ is the Baptizer (Matthew 3:11-12).

The natural man cannot be saved unless God intervenes in his dead condition. And that is what He does. He sent Peter, Peter preached the Gospel, but God is the One that initiated Cornelius' salvation. He is the One that baptized Cornelius with the Holy Ghost. He is the One that granted repentance unto life.

And He did this through the preaching of the Gospel through a man that once rejected the Gospel (Matthew 16:20-23).

Paul is pleading with people to be reconciled with God.

Correct, showing that not all men have been reconciled through God being in Christ reconciling the world.

In other words get into a right relationship with God. The only way for man to do that is through faith in Christ Jesus. So what Paul is saying here is we have to be saved before we can have a right relationship with God.
2Co 5:20 ... we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Exactly.

The means of relationship with God under the Law was through obedience to the revelation provided through the Law. It showed men they were sinners and that because they would do nothing but sin they would continually have to offer up sacrifice for that sin. Only through Christ's righteousness being imputed to men could man have remission of sins on an eternal basis. That is what God promised in the Old Testament, and that is what He did (Hebrews 10:14-18).

From Gods' perspective man is reconciled to Him through the death of His Son. From the perspective of man we are reconciled to God through our faith in the risen Christ Jesus.

I have to disagree here again: men are not reconciled until they are in Christ. Only when men have been eternally redeemed are they reconciled.

If as Aaron says "Reconciliation is Salvation" then all would be saved as per
2Co 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself

It's really the opposite, Silverhair: no man is saved until he is reconciled. That is why Paul beseeched men to be reconciled.

And why would it be necessary for Paul to implore people to be reconciled to God?

Precisely. Maybe I'm missing something here, lol. I'll just ask, do you think all men have been reconciled because "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself," or that it is not until men place faith in Christ that they are reconciled?

Again, great response.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I was very clear in my post. Unfortunately you have corrupted my words. God Bless

I'm not sure how I corrupted your words. You said I was trying to say something I didn't, and I addressed that.

You said:

I'm sorry but your understanding of that passage (I Corinthians 2:14) has been, unfortunately, taken out of context and then inappropriately applied to lost people in an errant way. If you read all of chapters 1-3 you gain the appropriate context. Paul when talking to believers (in chapter 1) was offering correction on their division which Paul said is worldly thinking. He goes on to compare worldly thinking to spiritual thinking. This worldly thinking can be applied to both believers and non believers. Verse 14 of chapter 2 can therefore be applied to believers and non believers. Further support of this can be found in verse 1 of chapter 3 where he says "But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ." the words "flesh" and "natural" are synonyms and can be used interchangeably.

So it is the God's revelation of Himself both General revelation (Romans 1:18-20) and special revelation (the word of God Romans 10:17).

You say my understanding is taking the passage out of context, and nothing you say shows this. I have never implied that natural men can receive or perceive the spiritual things of God (the clear statement of Paul) and I have always ascribed the ability to perceive and receive to the Comforter.

I agree that it is believers being instructed as though they are carnal, and I have never said anything that implies natural man can understand unless God enlightens their minds.

If you are trying to say natural man can receive and perceive spiritual things, then I disagree. They cannot unless God is the One making the truth known to them.

Natural man has absolutely zero ability to understand. He does not have an inherent ability. God must enlighten him. And while we do see the testimony of Creation being one of the ways God enlightens, man, keep in mind that no man was eternally redeemed through the testimony of Creation, nor will be during their lifetime. It is only when the Comforter came down from Heaven in the specific New Covenant role as Comforter that He began to enlighten men specifically to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And it is only through believing on Jesus Christ that men can be eternally redeemed while they are still alive on this earth. There is no other way. And temporal justification is not a means of eternal redemption, though I do believe the eternal destinies of the Old Testament Saints were secured by that justification. It must be contrasted with Eternal Justification which occurs only for those who believe on Christ and place faith in Him as the risen Savior.

And that belief and faith is a result of God's intervention, not something the natural man can achieve through an inherent ability.


God bless.

 

[Silverhair]

Correct.

Correct.

IOW, because there's something good in them.

Incorrect.

Aaron you still do not deal with the text of the bible. Correct. As long as you continue to ignore what the bible says you will remain someone that lives on the milk of the word.

 

[Aaron]

Aaron you still do not deal with the text of the bible. Correct. As long as you continue to ignore what the bible says you will remain someone that lives on the milk of the word.

LOL. I'm practically the only one in this thread who IS dealing with the text. You just don't like where it's taking you.

Christ's eternal priesthood is very hard to understand, which is why the apostle could not say much about Melchizedek to the Hebrews.

Regardless, you aren't even obeying the rules of grammar in your notions about Romans 5:10.

Generally, when we speak of salvation, we mean Redemption. That which has purged our sins and purchased us.

The Bible uses the word saved in that sense too, but not exclusively. It uses the term to mean preservation, too. And certainly that is the sense in Romans 5:10. In another place, Paul says we are saved by hope.

What is the act that purged our sins and purchased us?

 

[Silverhair]

Agreed. Universal salvation is false doctrine.




Correct. It is not a "work" to accept a gift, else it is no longer a gift, but a payment.




So does Peter:


Acts 11:17-18 King James Version

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Cornelius was saved by the words Peter preached unto him:


11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.


12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:


13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;


14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.


Cornelius was eternally indwelt and baptized into Christ:


15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.


16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


Christ is the Baptizer (Matthew 3:11-12).

The natural man cannot be saved unless God intervenes in his dead condition. And that is what He does. He sent Peter, Peter preached the Gospel, but God is the One that initiated Cornelius' salvation. He is the One that baptized Cornelius with the Holy Ghost. He is the One that granted repentance unto life.

And He did this through the preaching of the Gospel through a man that once rejected the Gospel (Matthew 16:20-23).




Correct, showing that not all men have been reconciled through God being in Christ reconciling the world.




Exactly.

The means of relationship with God under the Law was through obedience to the revelation provided through the Law. It showed men they were sinners and that because they would do nothing but sin they would continually have to offer up sacrifice for that sin. Only through Christ's righteousness being imputed to men could man have remission of sins on an eternal basis. That is what God promised in the Old Testament, and that is what He did (Hebrews 10:14-18).




I have to disagree here again: men are not reconciled until they are in Christ. Only when men have been eternally redeemed are they reconciled.



It's really the opposite, Silverhair: no man is saved until he is reconciled. That is why Paul beseeched men to be reconciled.




Precisely. Maybe I'm missing something here, lol. I'll just ask, do you think all men have been reconciled because "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself," or that it is not until men place faith in Christ that they are reconciled?

Again, great response.


God bless.

From Gods' perspective man is reconciled to Him through the death of His Son. From the perspective of man we are reconciled to God through our faith in the risen Christ Jesus.

1} I don't view Reconciliation to be applied to those who are still lost.

As I had said, the sacrifices of the OT foreshadowed the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. The sacrifices allowed for a return to a peaceful relationship with God. This is what we see in the death of the Son. Col 1:20 ...having made peace through the blood of His cross. Did the Son not die for the sins of the world? 1Jn_2:2 ...but also for those of the whole world.



2} “...making the means of reconciliation to God possible,”

If God had dealt with the sin of man as His justice requires then all men would be doomed. But He chose to restore peace between us via the cross, He restored that relationship not man. As you pointed out I had said "Christ Jesus died for sinners so that we could be reconciled to God."


After reading through your posts I see that we are in agreement on many points. Where we differ is in understanding of reconciliation. I view Col 1:20 one way and you another, God reconciled the world to Himself through the death of His Son. When 1Jn 2:2 tells me that Christ died for the sins of all that is what it means to me. The death of the Son made it possible for all to be saved because the Father viewed the sins of all covered. So from His perspective all were reconciled to Him, His wrath had been averted, but man has to accept and trust in the Son before they are saved. From the perspective of man He is only reconciled with the Father when he trusts in the Son.

For me this is the only way that Col 1:20 makes any sense. We are told “reconcile all things” not some things as the view that it only applies to those that are saved would require.

 

[Silverhair]

LOL. I'm practically the only one in this thread who IS dealing with the text. You just don't like where it's taking you.

Christ's eternal priesthood is very hard to understand, which is why the apostle could not say much about Melchizedek to the Hebrews.

Regardless, you aren't even obeying the rules of grammar in your notions about Romans 5:10.

Generally, when we speak of salvation, we mean Redemption. That which has purged our sins and purchased us.

The Bible uses the word saved in that sense too, but not exclusively. It uses the term to mean preservation, too. And certainly that is the sense in Romans 5:10. In another place, Paul says we are saved by hope.

What is the act that purged our sins and purchased us?

Rom 5:10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
much more,
having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

So what rules of grammar am I not following? Are you operating under a special set.

Aaron I see that it is not the text of the bible that you believe but rather your calvinism. You are reading into the text what you need to see so that you can preserve your errant view.

LOL. I'm practically the only one in this thread who IS dealing with the text. You just don't like where it's taking you.

Christ's eternal priesthood is very hard to understand, which is why the apostle could not say much about Melchizedek to the Hebrews.

Regardless, you aren't even obeying the rules of grammar in your notions about Romans 5:10.

Generally, when we speak of salvation, we mean Redemption. That which has purged our sins and purchased us.

The Bible uses the word saved in that sense too, but not exclusively. It uses the term to mean preservation, too. And certainly that is the sense in Romans 5:10. In another place, Paul says we are saved by hope.

What is the act that purged our sins and purchased us?

The act that purged our sins is the atonement, the Son's death on the cross. His death was sufficient to cover the sins of all mankind but unless you are a universalist you have to agree that only those that trust in the Son are actually saved.

You are under this misunderstanding that if someone does not use the correct calvinist words in the right order then they do not understand scripture. You just need to start trusting more of what the bible says and less of what your calvinism teaches you.

 

[Aaron]

The act that purged our sins is the atonement, the Son's death on the cross. His death was sufficient to cover the sins of all mankind

This is true.

So what is the state of the man whose sins are covered? Hint: It's in Romans 4 .

 

[Silverhair]

This is true.

So what is the state of the man whose sins are covered? Hint: It's in Romans 4 .

There is a vast distance between the Son paying the sin debt of the whole world and someone having their sins covered.
HINT Look at who was the propitiation for sins:
1Jn_2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1Jn_4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

I am well aware of whose sins were covered. Those that believe. The promise given to Abraham was to be realized through faith.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Salvation is the gift of God that only those that believe in the Son receive. Which lines up with what Rom 4 tells us, the promise that was given to Abraham is received through faith not by works so no one can boast.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So as the bible tells us the Son paid for the sins of the whole world but only those that trust in the Son for salvation will receive the gift of God, eternal life.

 

[Aaron]

There is a vast distance between the Son paying the sin debt of the whole world and someone having their sins covered.

Agreed. One is true and the other, as you understand it, is not.

1Jn_2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for [the Jews] only but also for the [Gentiles]. This meaning is clearly illuminated in Romans 11, as I've already cited.

I am well aware of whose sins were covered. Those that believe. The promise given to Abraham was to be realized through faith.

As you yourself said...

The act that purged our sins is the atonement, the Son's death on the cross.

So as the bible tells us the Son paid for the sins of the whole world but only those that trust in the Son for salvation will receive the gift of God, eternal life.

You just said, only the sins of those who believe are covered.

 

[Darrell C]

No, Adam didn't have eternal life, but he was good and upright, and was the son God. Luke 3:38 .

He was alive and not bound for hell.

But it doesn't much matter what you think about what our being in Adam means, and how it foreshadows our being in Christ.

I think there is great importance to how we view man's original state in Adam. If one believes he was in a "spiritual union" with God, lost that in the Fall, and now we're trying to get back what we once had—it has great impact on how you interpret the entire Bible. It is ironic that many that hold to that view are usually dogmatic that eternal salvation cannot be lost. But that is precisely what that view teaches.

As far as Adam being bound for Hell, there are two ways to look at that: first, if Adam is among the elect, no, there was never a chance of him ending up in Hell, and secondly, he was always going to sin, so in that sense he was headed to Hell just everyone else.

All men are headed for Hell, it is only God's grace and mercy that redirects man's eternal destiny. This would be just as true of Adam as it is of all men. God knew he would sin, and God knew what the remedy for that sin is.

To be reconciled means to be brought into a right relationship. It doesn't matter if you think of it as a first meeting or a reunion.

I think that's a great way to put it.

Man has enjoyed relationship with God, but I see a need to distinguish between our becoming new creatures in Christ and that relationship to be far different even from the direct, physical relationship Adam and Eve enjoyed. This too shapes one's understanding of Scripture. Again, if the concept of "righting a relationship to a former condition" is in view, it overlooks the magnitude of what Christ has done for us.

We are called lost sheep,

Agreed. Though I would point out that there were those who were not of His sheep (John 10:26).

We are called lost sheep, seeming to imply that we were originally in the fold.

I look at it as a reference to the elect, and do not see it making sheep out all who are lost. I think it is more a reference to those within God's foreknowledge who are among the elect. Those who openly reject the will of God are not sheep, but goats.

It is said we have gone astray, seeming to imply we were originally on track.

And I think this might be the point @Silverhair has a focus on. When were we originally on track? In Adam? Or when we were conceived.

I take the position that when men are conceived they have not inherited a disease from their parents, but that they will sin because they have no nature that would prevent it.

So man sinning isn't a result of man having sin, it is a result of man—not having God.

Therefore, as you have put it, we are brought into a "right relationship" with God in Reconciliation. This relationship far exceeds relationship previously enjoyed by men, and this includes Adam (who actually walked in the presence of God in daily communion).

There is the parable of the Prodigal Son, the Lost Coin, the Ten Virgins (which, by the way, justifies the marriage reference).

Well, one of the things which makes my view a little (or a lot) different from most is that I look at Christ's ministry to Israel (and those are the only lost sheep He was sent to, Matthew 10:6; Matthew 15:24) worked within the revelation provided to men at that point, meaning He ministered within the Law, Prophets, and Psalms that they had.

Because of that, the first application of His teaching is directed to conditions within the Kingdom they awaited, which was a physical Kingdom.

If we try to place an eternal context into all of them there are some problems that arise. The parable of the talents would suggest money will be in use in the Eternal State. I doubt that just a little bit, lol. The Ten Virgins has an application, in my opinion, to Israel prior to Christ's first coming. It is when He came the first time that judgment fell on those who were not ready. It also has application to Israel now. It very likely will have application to Israel in the Millennial Kingdom.

Christ is the Ruler that has gone into a far Kingdom to await His kingdom.

If we were restored to a right relationship with God by the death of one who cannot die ( unlike Adam ) how much more of a relationship it is by virtue of Who it was that died, yet cannot die.

And it is the use of the word restored that would suggest we are getting back something we once had, and I don't see that as the case.

No man had "life" prior to Christ coming. Not until the Living Bread came down from Heaven did men begin to eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, or in other words—believe in His death, burial, and Resurrection (the Gospel of Christ).

Now that The Faith has come, we are no longer under the schoolteacher.

Not merely restored to our original state, that is not merely remade in His image, like Adam, but begotten of God.

Precisely.

True sons, partakers of the Divine Nature, eternal. Incorruptible. Unable to fall.

Exactly.


God bless.