Featured The Unpardonable Sin

This is where it gets interesting, lol.

"Whosoever" is not given in a national context, but an individual context.

I agree, we do see the unpardonable sin in Hebrews, and it does speak in a national context (in my view), but this quote doesn't support an utter destruction of Israel.

Jesus wasn't in the "last days." He ministered at the end of the Age of Law. This Age is the last days.

This Age began at Pentecost.

No Age began or ended in AD70.

This would be a point that would have to be resolved in order to maintain the point itself.

But that is not accurate: Jews are very much being saved despite being scattered.

The destruction of physical Israel does not mean that National Israel ceased to be.


Continued...

 

"The Day of the Lord" has a primary reference to a day of judgment, and based on that I agree, Israel will be saved through tribulation, specifically The Tribulation.

It is Daniel's Seventieth Week, and pertains to Daniel's People, the Hebrew People, Israel.

While we can call the Millennial Kingdom "the Day of the Lord," I am not sure how you are trying to make the time of Jacob's Trouble an Age. THey are saved while the Tribulation is ongoing. And even the born again Jews that die will be raised to life again, hence "... all Israel shall be saved." All believing Jews of Israel will be saved in that time. All unbelieving Jews will die (physically).

The Bride is taken out (caught up) prior to the tribulation. Israel endures the Seventieth Week (a seven year period) and is preserved during the last 3 1/2 year period:


Revelation 12:13-17 King James Version

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


When Christ returns, the Sheep and Goat Judgment take place and every unbeliever dies physically.

Only those born again enter the (Millennial) Kingdom because only they have entered that Kingdom which we (born-again believers) have already entered.

And this is where I am unsure exactly what you are trying to say: you seem to be saying two things at once.

That's why I respond, to get a clearer statement of your position.

I don't see Israel as being reborn in 1948, though I do see a partial fulfillment of Prophecy. 1948 began a process that is tied to the Tribulation.

Israel, on a National basis, will resume Levitical Service in the Tribulation:


Daniel 9:26-27 King James Version

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The prince to come is Antichrist, and it will be his power that enables Israel to resume Levitical Service in observance of the Law.

He will confirm (strengthen) the covenant for one week, a seven-year period. The only covenant relevant to Daniel's People (Israel) is the Covenant of Law.

In the middle of the week (this seven-year period) he will cause the sacrifice and offering to cease. He will no longer "strengthen" (validate) the Covenant of Law that enables Israel to perform their service and worship.

That is not God gathering and restoring Israel, that is still Israel blinded and out of God's will. Trying to be in relationship with Him under the "vine that is not the True Vine," and under the Covenant that has been made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

During that time (the tribulation) Israel goes from unbelieving to believing through the ministry of people of Israel, the 144,000. When Antichrist breaks his covenant concerning the Covenant, Israel (those born again) will be protected by God and enabled to endure to the end.

The "woman that brought forth the child" is Israel. A Nation. She will exist in the Tribulation, and "... all Israel will be saved."


Continued...

 

Again, I responded and objected to certain statements, but it seems here you are saying what I would say is correct. It doesn't have anything to do with AD70, because it is Christ that ended Israel's provision for relationship with God through the Covenant of Law.

Not Rome.

It happened at Pentecost when the New Covenant began to bring people into relationship with God through the True Vine, Jesus Christ.

Not in AD70.

Nicodemus should have immediately thought of Ezekiel 36 and 37 when the Lord spoke to him about being born again. Ezekiel 36 gives a clear picture of Regeneration (in the spiritual sense), and Ezekiel 37 gives a clear picture of the physical resurrection of the nation.

I am glad, though, that we can agree on some things, and some of those things are extremely important.

Thanks for the response,


God bless.

 

It is not my intention to prove you wrong and myself correct in this post because I do not believe you to be incorrect in any meaningful way. I do however believe you to be lacking in light in certain areas and not careful enough at other times in your study of the words and the types of scripture. If you devote yourself as a student of scriptures and approach them as one who can be corrected if the need arises, then any thing you lack will eventually be understood. The scriptures are reasonable and sensible.

Let me just say you assumed that I was teaching something that I was not in two or three of your comments. I am a pre-mil, pre-trib believer and take a dispensational approach to the word of God and accept the words of God as being literal and believable. I believe when God says he will reign over the whole earth through the restored and converted Israel I believe it will be just as he says and it will take place in the final and seventh one thousand year day of the Lord, which God refers to as his sabbath rest for the people of God. I believe everything that God says about Judah and Israel in the OT and in the new. I believe God is fashioning a bride for his Son in this present age as is typified in the previous history when he took a rib from the side of Adam and made a woman, a helpmeet for Adam, and then presented her to him as his wife. The gentiles are included in this purpose of God because of Israels rejection of Jesus Christ as Messiah and King through her priestly rulers and instead of fulfilling all OT prophecies concerning a literal and physical kingdom with the King reigning from Jerusalem, he established the mystery form of the kingdom that has no physical boundaries but exists in the hearts of the repentant believers in Christ wherever they are.

The kingdom is now a mystery because there is no prophecy in the OT concerning this time period and this purpose of God. The reason for this is because it really was the will of God for Israel to be converted and for him to establish his kingdom which he said for over three years was at hand. It is reasonable to understand that God will not establish his physical kingdom over Israel, and by extension, the whole world, by some being saved if all are not saved. Certainly we are in this present age, the mystery form of the kingdom and all are not saved but among the saved are the tares that cannot be distinguished by the naked eye from the wheat. There are good fish and bad fish that must be separated at the end of the age when harvest time comes, and there is leaven mingled in the loaf as well as dirty birds roosting in the mustard tree. This age has never had all saved. Far from it. Paul, our apostle, as far back as 49 AD when he penned the epistle to the Galatians, said the following about this age;

Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world (age), according to the will of God and our Father:

When I say you are not careful concerning the words of God the following example comes to mind though there is more than one example in your lists of comments. You kept referring to the branches being taken form the vine tree and the gentile branches grafted in their place. I remind you that this is an olive tree root and not a vine in Romans 11 and the meaning in typology is far different from the vine.

One more clarification concerning the gentile nature of the church after AD 70 when Israel was cut off from her covenants by being separated from her land. I will not elaborate on this point but will just say here that 8 gentiles women in the OT pictures the church of Jesus Christ by being wed to Jewish men, the first being Isaac, the sure type of Jesus Christ that no sane person would deny and his gentile bride Rebekah. The entire narrative from Gen 22 through Gen 24 is a metaphor of the history that we have the privilege of observing from hindsight. Israel was buried by God in the earth after she died and the unnamed servant was sent out by God to seek for a wife among the gentiles and Rebekah was found and brought of her own free will to Christ, having never seen him but informed of all the riches he possessed, and she found him waiting for her in the field, where he had come out to meet her and to take her to his Fathers house.

I believe there is plenty of evidence that the day of the Lord judgments recorded in both testaments and pertaining to both the world and the church during the same time frame happens in the very beginning of the "age to come" which is the age following this one. I would not make an argument against this until I had studied it out. You will find that "day of the LORD" is mentioned 30 times in 29 verses over a thousand years by 12 prophets in 17 different books of the bible and every time it is future and it is a time of judgement. Concerning the church it is called the day of the Lord Jesus by Paul and the church will be judged for her works and for rewards while the earth will be getting judged in indignation and wrath of God against sin. It is a day of darkness on the earth and follows the classical Hebrew approach to day as "the evening and the morning were the ...day." The night is first and then the daylight.



Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world (age) to come,

 

Would you mind quoting where you find me lacking light? It might be easier to hone in on specific details. I will have to come back to this, as I do not have the time I would like to take in addressing the response.

I do appreciate the response, by the way.

Hope you, and everyone, have a good Lord's Day!


God bless.

 

No, I am not interested in arguing the finer points of the truths I presented on this thread. My comments come from a dispensation point of view. They are just my comments and opinions based on my years of study and meditation of the wonderful KJV bible, if you like. I hold another opinion that there is a very real possibility that I am not right on every fine point of the doctrine but the wonderful thing is that I continue to learn.

I will say this just for clarity concerning my teaching that the church of Jesus Christ that was existent in 70 AD and which had both Jews and gentiles in the membership at that time and that it took on a distinctly gentile character after the Jewish nation lost their national identity through dispersion out of their land. It is not unusual for a pivot point to exist within a dispensation without it becoming a new dispensation. It happened several times in scripture. The very subject we are speaking of, the unpardonable sin, notes a pivot point from where God is offering the Jewish leaders the kingdom by them receiving him as the promised King, Matthew 1-12, to this being taken from them and the characteristics of a resulting new age are given in 7 distinct parables in the very next chapter, thirteen. It begins with a sowing of seeds in the field in the beginning of the age to the reaping at the end of the age. This kingdom has no boundaries because the field in which the seeds are sown is the whole world. It will be a mystery form of the kingdom of heaven while the King is away.

Just for interest sake, the number 12 is the number God uses for his perfect government and the unpardonable sin is in Matt 12 where the government of God and his King is refused.

The number 11 is the number God uses for Israel falling short of the government of God and when the end of the previous age took place there were only 11 apostles and the kingdom cold not be established with just 11 apostles. Here is proof;

Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Obviously the age began with 11 apostles, one short. It would be Acts 13:2 before God would choose Barnabas to fill the office of the twelve.

The number 13 is the number that God uses in connection to transgressors and gentiles. For instance, Paul was the 13th apostle, the apostle to the gentiles, who wrote 13 letters to the gentiles and was commissioned as an apostle and sent out to preach in Acts 13. If you begin to look for this number you will find it everywhere. The mark of the beast and the beginning of the kingdom of the beast and his trinitarian image is in Rev 13. There are no coincidences with God.

AD 70 was a pivot point within the dispensation of grace, where he began to deal with Jews individually as gentiles, for obvious reasons.

God bless.

 

And that is a good thing.

I take the position, though, that it is when we argue the finer points that we are able to help each other come to a better understanding of what God is teaching us in His Word.

Again, I simply do not see a transition to a gentile nature in the early church. Paul was willing to be part in a ceremony that involved a sacrifice (Acts 21:17-26). He did this to satisfy the Jerusalem elders of the church that he wasn't teaching against the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20-21). These people are said to "believe" yet they were still zealous for the Law.

I'd be curious to see examples of what you mean by a pivot point.

I'm not sure if you are saying this is a pivot point within a dispensation of God. If you mean this is how a new age begins I would agree. One issue, though, would be that there was never a possibility that Israel would "receive" Christ, and one reason is, I believe, because they had not yet had the Gospel revealed to them. It remained a Mystery until the Comforter began revealing it to men for the first time at Pentecost.

I agree, this parable has application to this Age. But we might also see application to the previous Age as well as the Millennial Kingdom.

Disagree a little here: it was a mystery, we understand it now. They (Israel) do not, because they are under blindness, which is the same blindness they were under in the Age of Law. I do not view their state of blindness to be a "kingdom," so I would need you to further explain what you mean by saying it is a "mystery form of the kingdom."

By the way, the blindness they are under deals in large part, I believe, with their lack of understanding concerning the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Continued...

 

I have never really been that fascinated with numerology. It is fairly easy to see patterns and to present meaning to those patterns. I rank it up there with seeing faces in the clouds. Just because I see Mickey up there doesn't mean he really is there, or that I should give it weight above that which is made clear to me in Scripture.

In regards to numbers the perfect Government of God only involves One.

Human government for the people of God was a concession by God in response to carnally minded sinners.

The Kingdom will not be established with/by Apostles, it will be established by Christ. Hence the fact that there were only 11 unregenerate disciples when Christ died makes little difference to how and when the Kingdom will be established.

All of the disciples were unregenerate when the kingdom He established here among men was established. He established this kingdom Himself by baptizing with the Holy Ghost. And there were more than eleven, and more than twelve when He established the Church.

On the contrary, it began with 12:


Acts 1 KJV

26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Acts 2 KJV

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


While we might hem and haw about the disciples tossing dice to pick the twelfth, we in Acts 2, Peter stands up with eleven. If there were only eleven then Peter would have stood up with the ten.

I take the position that God chose Paul to be the twelfth:


Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

Colossians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

1 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;



1 Corinthians 15:3-8 King James Version

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


I'm not saying you are wrong about your position, perhaps you are right, and the tossing of dice was not valid. I certainly think that's reasonable since these were unregenerate men depending on a method of choice we might find questionable.

But because Paul was an inspired writer it seems reasonable also to conclude he is the Apostle that took the place of the worst betrayer among the disciples.


Continued...

 

But Paul was not a Gentile, he was a Jew, a member of the Tribe of Benjamin. The twelfth legitimate Apostle, not just an apostle. A Pharisee of the Pharisees.

I agree, if you look for it you will find it.

The number of the beast is not thirteen, it is 666.

Again, I have to disagree: Israel is never considered as Gentiles, nor treated as Gentiles, they are treated as Israel. Israel is blinded, not made Gentile, nor viewed as Gentile. It is because they are Israel that they are being judged.

Their role was as a picture of the "peculiar people" of God in a temporal context, even as animal sacrifice was a picture of the Death of Christ. We await Israel being brought into relationship with God through the New Covenant in the kingdom promised them.

I would ask, do you feel Israel has been cast away and that the church is now (spiritual) Israel?

May the Lord bless you, and your studies as well.


God bless.

 

How am I to be corrected if you do not correct? If you find me in error, you have a responsibility beyond simply stating there is error. That is one of my primary goals in discussion and debate, to first test my own positions. If I am in error and someone can show me through Scripture, I want to receive that correction.

We agree on this: Scripture was given for the express purpose that we understand the will of God.

I thought I was clear that I was seeking clarification. You seemed to be saying two different things. If I misread (and this happens at times, unfortunately) your meaning then I apologize, but the response was for the purpose of clarification. Not simply to say "You're wrong!" lol

A fellow Young Earth Creationist, awesome!. Among positions we are truly a minority these days.

I too believe the Millennial Kingdom will be the final millennium of this creation.

Can't say I'd disagree with that.

And this is an issue we disagree on: in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek/Gentile.

The Body of Christ is of one fold, and temporal designations no longer apply.

That does not mean to say that in the temporal realm that our heritage disappears. A Jew that is saved remains a Jew, a Gentile remains a Gentile. That distinction will remain until the Eternal State when we will all be of the One Fold under the One Shepherd. Such designations will not have the significance as they do now. But that is what I see a the primary problem in the understanding of Scripture, the failure to properly distinguish between eternal and temporal context.

Again, I would have to disagree.

Consider:


Isaiah 49:6 KJV
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


We see the New Covenant had in view all along the promise of blessing to all families of the earth.

Here we see not just Gentiles, but the remnant of Israel.


Continued...

 

I would agree that Christ has established His Kingdom in the Church, the Body of Christ, but this does not negate that physical Kingdom in which Israel will be restored.

As far as all being saved, this will be true at the end of the Age, due to the fact that only those born again will enter that kingdom.

Christ was not just speaking about the "mystery" kingdom (as you call it (and I am not saying I disagree with that designation)) when He spoke to Nicodemus. All unbelievers will be destroyed by the time the Sheep and Goat Judgment takes place. Only born again believers will enter into the Millennial Kingdom and this is the fulfillment of God's promise/s to Israel in regards to her restoration.

And it will exceed what they expected, because they viewed it, as Nicodemus and the disciples are seen to, as a physical kingdom only.

I agree this Age is distinct from the Age of Law, and the Age to come (the Millennial Kingdom). But we see a primary reference to being delivered from sin.

I'd truly appreciate you presenting where I am not "careful," lol. After all, it is not good enough for one to teach without actually teaching. Or correcting without correcting.

And I only see one example, perhaps I missed something.

First, I never used the term "vine tree." I spoke of the True Vine, and the Tree.

Second, the typology is not far different, both are illustrating branches being removed.

Third, That it is called an olive tree doesn't negate what it is: the provision of God. It is the means of relationship and blessing. The Law served as a means of relationship between God and Man. Christ is the true means of relationship. What He is doing in John 15 is warning the disciples (and by extension, Israel) to choose Him as their means of relationship rather than returning to the Law.

When Christ said "I am the True Bread," He contrasted Himself with manna. Manna was the temporal/physical means of life, Christ (His flesh, His Body, His death) was the eternal means of life.

Some view the tree and the vine to be salvation itself, but this comes into conflict with the fact that Eternal Salvation is in fact eternal, and always taught thus in Scripture.

It is, in my view, just the opposite: it distinguishes between branches from among Israel (natural branches, because the promise and provision begins in her), and Gentile branches, who are grafted in to the means of relationship and provision.

Gentiles could become proselytes under Law, but the covenant and blessings were given to Israel. That is the context we follow to properly understand Romans 11.

Because Gentiles could still benefit from the Covenant and associated blessings, this is why Paul makes it clear that the promise of blessing in Abraham was not made void by the Law. God has from the Garden intended that salvation would be for all men. Israel is given as a temporal picture of the Church. The Church is a temporal picture of the One Fold.


Continued...

 

Would Sarai make 9?



If we are going to designate women that are in Christ's lineage as Gentiles then we are going to have to begin with the first Gentile woman, Eve.

Right?

I don't see Israel being buried. In fact, one of the clearest prophetic pictures we see is Israel laying in a valley, unburied (Ezekiel 37)

When Christ came to the "lost sheep," Israel was in a state of destruction already. AD70 did not compound that state of death.

Note the word fo lost here:


Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


The Lord would go on to instruct men to fear Him who can destroy both soul (person) and body in Hell.

The destruction Israel was in was utter destruction likened to the destruction men will be in when cast into Hell, the Lake of Fire:


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy G622 both soul and body in hell.


Continued...

 

Whereas I believe "Day of the Lord" judgments have already taken place, and they will take place again. During the Tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation. At the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

Just as a point of discussion, consider:


2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


I would suggest two things are in view: the Day of the Lord, and His gathering together of us unto Him.

Most will only see Paul speaking about one event. But I take the position that he is distinguishing between the rapture and the Day of the Lord.

He deals with the false teaching that "the resurrection" had already passed here:


2 Timothy 2:16-18 King James Version

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Now how exactly would Hy and Phi convince people that a resurrection had taken place? It seems rather simple, to me: Paul taught that the rapture was a resurrection. Hy and Phi were teaching the rapture had already taken place. Above we see Paul speaking about our gathering and the Day of the Lord.

And he says, again, do not fear such talk.

I would agree that it is reasonable to expect the judgment of the church to take place at the rapture (in regards to our works), and that reward will take place there. But I distinguish between the judgment of the Church, the unbelieving, and the physically living believers that will make it through the Tribulation.


Continued...

 

I agree by and large. But that doesn't mean we have no events of a Day of the Lord already taking place in History.

I define a "day of the Lord" to be any day of God's visitation. This would include the Incarnation. It was a day of judgment.

I would have to disagree, and I am not what I consider a Dispensationalist (meaning my doctrine is a result of studying that system (though I do admit that many fellowships I have attended were, and they certainly played a part in how I studied, though they did not determine the outcome of my studies)): the seventieth Week pertains to Daniel's people, Israel. First and foremost they are the ones coming under judgment.

The Church is not found in the Tribulation, nor is she judged in the Tribulation.

While those who are saved during the Tribulation are part of that One Fold, and technically members of the Body of Christ (by reason of their being baptized into Christ upon salvation in the Tribulation, we still see a distinction made between the church and those saved in the Tribulation. There is a reason for that. We see those who witness for Christ are members of Tribes of Israel. That distinction clarifies Israel's role in the Tribulation. We see Israel preserved in the wilderness. We see the beast and the devil seek to persecute Israel.

While they will be one in Christ with the Gentiles also saved in that day, it is Scripture that makes the distinction, thus we must take heed to that distinction.


Continued...

 

Again, I am going to have to disagree: just because a day is seen to be a 24 hour period at times, that does not negate that a day can also refer to an age or an extended period. In regard to Creation, those were 24 hour days, the text cannot be interpreted any other way. But in regards to the Day of the Lord, this refers to any time God intervenes in man's affairs, and usually in judgment.

Take "Abraham's day," for example. Abraham and his receiving of the promise involves quite a bit more than a 24 hour period.

The Tribulation is properly a Day of the Lord, and that will take 7 years.

I view this as a reference to the enlightening ministry of the COmforter in regards to the truth of Christ to the Hebrew people, and a witness of the salvation taking place among the Hebrew people.

But we also note that we don't "taste" of those things, we are made partakers when we are saved by Christ.

Okay, I didn't respond because I want to prove you wrong any anything, but for the purpose of discussion. I agree that if we study and are able to receive correction it can only benefit us.


God bless.

 

I can't really see how Paul going to the temple is evidence that the church does not take on a gentile character after the dispersion in AD 70 when the gospel of Jesus Christ is now going to the whole world, except the land of Israel, because there were no Jews left in Palestine.

Here is something to study later when you have time. The gospel of Matthew and the Acts of the apostles both have 28 chapters and follows basically the same chapter and theological breakdown on major points. It is not coincidental that Jesus begins to speak of the mysteries of the kingdom of God during this age, a new age that begins with a planting and ends with a reaping, in Matt 13, and all this while he says that Israel is in a state of blindness and an unpardonable sin as a nation. Acts 13 is the distinct chapter where Paul receives his apostolic commission and begins his unique ministry to the gentiles.

So, for 12 chapters ending in Matt 12, Jesus has been preaching that the kingdom that was prophesied in all the OT prophets was now at hand and all they needed to do is to receive the King who was now in their midst. Matt 12 is obviously the ending of a growing season because Jesus said in that chapter that the fields were white unto harvest but the laborers were few and asked for prayer that he would send laborers into his harvest. Obviously the harvest time ended without the reaping of the harvest and the very next chapter we have Jesus speaking in parables and telling of a new planting season and how that crop would develop over the whole season until it was ready to harvest. The kingdom of the OT is no longer "at hand" at the end of Matt 12.

Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matt 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

So, by Matt 12 Jesus Christ was rejected by his own people to whom he had made kingdom promises through her rulers, not for claiming to be their savior, but for claiming to be their King and they decided to put him to death.

Matt 27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.

In the Acts they rejected his salvation, Jesus Christ in the person of the Holy Ghost. Isn't our context in Matt 12 about this house (family) that had been cleansed of it's devils? Isn't it about the unpardonable sin. And didn't Jesus Christ go out of the house and begin preaching to the multitudes of common folk in parables from a ship anchored in the sea, a metaphor for the mass of humanity? (Remember, they must be born again before entering the kingdom, Jn 3:7)

I don't know about you but I think the scriptures make plenty of sense and are reasonable and sensible. I can tell when God pivots. I can understand when he leaves a house where he is speaking to Jewish rulers about the end of one age and that it is time to harvest to going out of the house to speak to common people about a new age coming and explaining how it will develop and what the harvest of it will be like.



I will answer some other of your points as I have time. Thanks for the conversation.

 

Yes. I will give you one example where you could be greatly blessed and light, which is understanding, could be increased for you.

Recently on another thread I suggested to you that Jesus Christ breathed the Holy Spirit into his disciples on the evening of the same day he resurrected from the dead. You immediately disagreed that the gift of the Spirit was given to them that day and in that manner. Perhaps you did not believe that because it does not fit into your theological system of belief or it may be for some other reason. But, that is what John the apostle, who was there that day, said happened. I will quote it for you.

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Fifty days later these same men were in the Jerusalem and this is said about them when the Holy Ghost was sent from heaven to baptize Israel.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

A believer can have the Holy Ghost indwelling him but not be filled with the Holy Ghost. Believers are commanded to be filled with the Holy Ghost to accomplish the work of God by his leading and power. Take a look at this.

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

So, there was a condition for those of Israel to receive the Holy Ghost. These Holy Ghost filled preachers said that if they would repent of killing Jesus Christ and believe in his name along with being baptized in water, they would receive God's gift of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the life of God and is salvation from sin, but he must be in a man to give him life.
This is not a condition for gentiles to receive the Holy Ghost when God opened the door of faith to us some ten years later in Acts 10.

There is no record of these apostles ever being baptized in water to receive the Holy Ghost like those of Israel whom they were instructing as late as Acts 20:1-7. There is a record that they already had received the Holy Ghost and I quoted it to you from John 20. Whether you believe it or not is up to you.

There is a difference in the baptism of the Holy Ghost
The gift or the receiving of the Holy Ghost
and the filling of the Holy Ghost.

People before the death, burial, and resurrection were filled with the Holy Ghost but they were not regenerated by him at the time.
1) John the Baptist in his mother's womb - Lk 1:15
2) Zacharias Lk 1:67
3) Elizabeth Lk 1:41

Israel was baptized (immersed) with the Holy Ghost, meaning he was poured out from heaven is such abundance that every one of them could receive him.
Later he was poured out on the world in the same abundance.

Acts 11;15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us (Jews) at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them (the gentiles) the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Here is what that means. It means that everyone can drink him in because the Holy Ghost is like water. Life giving and from heaven and without cost. Take a look.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

My advice for anyone is to believe the words you read in the scriptures. One cannot go wrong if he does.

 

It depends on what you mean by receiving Christ. If you believe they must receive him as the savior, then I have already proven in a previous comment that not a single one of his disciples believed he was resurrected from the dead and did not even know what it meant when he began speaking about it, yet they trusted in him as savior by and by. Their sacrifices under their religious system was intended to teach them about what it takes to save them from the penalty of breaking their laws. Remember what Jesus said to Nicodemus when he asked what it means to be born again from above; "Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" Joh 3:10

If the rulers of Israel would have received Jesus as the promised Messiah and King before the cross, the nation would have received him as savior after the cross and resurrection. They did not but conspired with the gentiles to put him to death and that is the reason there were woes on those rulers of that generation and such a thing as an unpardonable sin.


Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mt 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mt 23:16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men’s] bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (age), neither in the [world] to come. (the age to come)

The Holy Ghost was the power of Jesus Christ to do his miracles and to live sinless. For these men to say that Jesus Christ did his miracles by the power of the devil was to insult the Holy Ghost. Nicodemus did not do that in John 3. He said, "we know thou art from God because no man could do these miracles except God be with him." John the Baptist said in John 3, God gave not the Spirit by measure unto him."

The present time in the next verses I quote is in the age of law and in the context of the end of the age.

Mr 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Lu 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

 

We can see in Scripture that they don't take on a Gentile Nature because of what we are told they do take on:

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

And again,


Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


There is no Gentile in Christ, hence no Gentile Nature:


2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Jews remain Jews, and Gentiles remain Gentiles in the temporal context. In the Eternal, we take on the nature of Christ. We put on Christ. Hence we are a new man:


Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


The new man is something that didn't exist before, because no man was in Christ before Pentecost.

In Christ we lose our identity as Jew or Gentile, but in the world we remain that which we were saved as.

One of the erroneous conclusions drawn by some is the idea that Israel is no longer a viable entity in Scripture because the "Church has become spiritual Israel," and has thus replaced her. This conclusion is in large part an attempt to discredit Israel's future role in Prophecy.

You say you are Dispensational, or that you come from that view, so this particular view steps away from a traditional Dispensational view. Not that I am saying that's a bad thing, because I do not view any Theological System to be perfect. My own views are similar to Dispensational Theology, but it is not a result of studying Dispensational Theology, so I too will be found in disagreement with some traditional Dispensational postions.

However, the idea that Jews or Israel take on a Gentile Nature is not supported by Scripture, in my view. Furthermore, it is denied by the Scripture posted in this and the previous posts.

You sure have made a lot of work for me, lol. I don't have the ability to respond to an entire post with a paragraph, I am driven to break it up and examine it point by point. So this is going to take some time.

I think I will have to address these, then step away, because I need to get myself back on track with other projects, and this could go on for eternity, lol.


Continued...