Featured Spiritual Truth and Doctrine II: The Meaning of Reconciliation

Aaron your calvinism is your blind spot. You struggle with the most basic of texts as you have to make the fit into your theology.

Did the death of the Son propitiate the sins of the whole world? YES 1Jn 2:2 , 1Jn 4:10

Did I say that only those that believe will have their sins covered? YES Rom 4:5

Did I say that only those that believe in the Son receive the gift of God, salvation? Yes Eph 2:8 Rom 6:23

As you said Rom 11 is clear that, whether Jew or Gentile, lack of faith or trust in your good works will not save you. It is your trust in the Son that saves you and as long as you continue to trust in the Son you will not be broken off, loose your salvation.

Note what Paul says about the Jews & Gentiles
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches {Jews} were broken off so that I {Gentiles} might be grafted in."
Why were they broken of? Rom 11:20 "...they {Jews} were broken off for their unbelief" apistis, G570 Faithlessness, In the NT, the lack of acknowledgment of Christ.
The Gentiles were told to maintain their faith "you stand by faith" pístis G4102 Subjectively meaning firm persuasion, conviction, belief in the truth.

But notice the warning given. Rom 11:20 "Do not be haughty, but fear." but fear what? Rom 11:22 "Otherwise you also will be cut off."

There are actually three tenses to salvation:
(1) past — I have been saved from the guilt and penalty of sin;
(2) present — I am being saved from the power and pollution of sin;
(3) future — I shall be saved from the very presence of sin when Christ returns. Wiersbe

As long as you trust in the Son you will remain in the Son but if you reject the Son you will be cut off.

Branches that are cut off from the tree because they are dead or diseased are not stored so they can be grafted in again. They are thrown into the fire. When we read what Paul wrote we must realize that he is speaking of Jews & Gentiles in both the collective and individual sense.

 

Once again your become insulting in your comments. I have noticed that many calvinists resort to that tactic when people do not accept their errant view. It is just a nonverbal way of stamping their feet and screaming “your not listening to me”

You have ignored what I posted so you just restate your view and hope that I will agree. If, as you say, reconciliation = salvation then that would make you a universalist.

You struggle with any scripture that does not fit nicely into your theology. I have noted that for the calvinist context means nothing. You just want to pick and choose verses that you think will support your view.

 

We have gone over this already and you still ignore scripture so further discussion on this would be pointless.

 

Actually if you had bothered to read what I wrote you would note that I said
Col 1:20 " and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross."
When a person is saved by the grace of God because of their trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus, that is salvation. If ones does not believe they will not be saved even though Christ Jesus was the propitiation for their sins. Joh 3:17 ...but that the world through Him might be saved. Joh 3:16 ...that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

That you can not or will not see the relationship between the sacrifices we see in Leviticus and "The Lamb of God" in the NT is odd to say the least. The sacrifices in the OT just restored a peace between God and man just as the death of the Son did in the NT. The sacrifices did not save anyone.

Paul, in 2Co 5:20, was pleading with people to be reconciled with God. In other words get into a right relationship with God. The only way for man to do that is through faith in Christ Jesus. So what Paul is saying here is we have to be saved before we can have a right relationship with God.

So while the death of the Son made it possible for all to be saved it is only those that trust in the risen Son that will be saved.

Perhaps now you can understand. From Gods' perspective He is at peace with man through the death of His Son, but from the perspective of man we are reconciled to God through our faith in the risen Christ Jesus.

From your comment it was clear that you did not understand what I had written.

 

Its Particular redemption

 

I know you aren't, but I'd feel better if you would say in your own words that you embrace Eternal Salvation. Wiersbe's statement (which I agree is true) states we have been saved from the penalty of sin, and in this we find Eternal Salvation, that which Christ came to bestow and which we receive through Eternal Union with Christ and God.

The reference to the "branches," though, seems to equate the means of salvation being made to the analogy of Paul in Romans 11.

And I will just give my own view of what the "tree" and "branches" represent.

What they represent is the provision of God, not eternal salvation. We know this, because if it was eternal salvation in view, then eternal salvation could be lost, and it is thence no more eternal salvation, which means it was never eternal salvation to begin with.

Israel enjoyed that provision, which included sustenance for life which was physical (manna, a land of their own, relationship with God), and were cut out of that provision by reason of 1) the provision being changed to eternal conditions (namely life), 2) the Law being changed (and in particular in reference to the Priesthood and what is offered by the Priesthood, our great High Priest in place of the High Priest of the Law), 3) they rejected that provision, and 4) that provision was only a shadow/parable/figure of the true.

Gentiles are now grafted into that provision by reason of the New Covenant which is not distinct to Israel, but is made available to all men.

This is why Christ calls Himself the true Vine. The "vine" was Israel (i.e., Psalm 80:8), and their means of provision (particularly relationship to God as His People).

I just wanted to make sure you didn't view salvation as something that would not be a reality in the eternal perspective until we reach that third aspect of Weirsbe's teaching.

I'm sure you are not, but I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to get across, and I would like to understand your view better.


God bless.

 

Do I believe in "eternal salvation" YES. We will have that when Christ Jesus takes us home. As long as we are in these mortal bodies we can and some do turn away and reject the salvation we had in Christ. The lead singer of Caedmen's Call, Derek Webb, has rejected the salvation found in Christ and has publicly repudiated the faith and has been a vocal atheist.

Some will say he was never really saved, some will say he is still saved but has just lost rewards. I do not know and I can not judge. What I do know is that apostasy is spoken of as a real possibility in the bible so I view it as a real possibility.

As long as we are in Christ we have eternal security but only as long as we are.

 

And you keep saying that it was His death that saves while the bible says it is His life. You want to trust in a dead man and I trust in the risen Christ.
1Co_15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co_15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
1Co_15:15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
1Co_15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co_15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is what you keep denying. Faith in the risen Christ Jesus saves, how can you not see this?
When you keep denying what the bible says why should I trust anything that you say? You trust in your errant theology.

 

Did you actually read the post? Well no I am sure you did not. to put this in simple terms that you actually my be able to understand.

Unless someone trusts in the risen Son they are still in their sins. Is that clear enough for you?

I am not a calvinist so I actually believe what the bible says which you seem unable to do. As I said before you need to get rid of your calvinist books and just trust the bible.

 

So you do not believe we have received Eternal Salvation yet.

That's what I thought your statement might be alluding to.

I am sorry to hear that, Silverhair, because that is unfortunately one of the effects of the modern view of "free will." Sadly, Calvinism is in part a response to that particular error. And what happens is that both sides have the tendency to go to extremes to support their views.

So I will ask you one question (in this particular portion of my response, I will also address the other statements): what does this...


Hebrews 10:14 King James Version

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


...mean?


God bless.

 

"When a person is saved by the grace of God because of their trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus, that is salvation. If ones does not believe they will not be saved even though Christ Jesus was the propitiation for their sins."

There is a vast distance between the Son paying the sin debt of the whole world and someone having their sins covered because they have trusted in Christ Jesus. You should know this as you say you trust the bible.


HINT Look at who was the propitiation for sins:


Christ is called the “propitiation for our sins.
1Jn_2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1Jn_4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Christ is “the propitiation,” by His becoming our substitute and assuming our obligations He made salvation possible for all mankind.

I am well aware of whose sins were covered. Those that believe. The promise given to Abraham was to be realized through faith.


Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Salvation is the gift of God that only those that believe in the Son receive. Which lines up with what Rom 4 tells us, the promise that was given to Abraham is received through faith not by works so no one can boast.


Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,


Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


So as the bible tells us the Son paid for the sins of the whole world but only those that trust in the Son for salvation will receive the gift of God, eternal life.

Aaron you trust in your philosophy whereas I trust the bible. I have given you a number of scripture verses that point out the truth to you and you just ignore them. If you are not going to trust the word of God then there really is no further help for you.

 

I would agree that men and women that are in Christ can fall into sin, and that they can forfeit their mortal lives as a result of that sin. However, In no portion of Scripture do we see Eternal Salvation lost. When a man is in Christ, and Christ in Him, that is the very basis of Eternal Salvation.

And it is eternal because of the source, Eternal God. Not just everlasting (that has application to our physical bodies, which have a beginning but will be made everlasting in glorification), but eternal, because we have been brought into Eternal Union with God.

Only God is Eternal, and when we are placed in Him, and He in us, we partake of that Eternal Nature:


1 Corinthians 10:16-21 King James Version

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.


Paul is basing his teaching on the teaching of Christ. "Except a man eat of His flesh and drink of His blood—he has not life in him."

We are made one with that bread and body, and we are partakers of that One Bread, which is Christ. One cannot be one with that bread and also that of the devil. One is either in Him or is not.

A clear distinction between the temporal and eternal is made here, and again it is based on Christ's teaching:


John 6:47-54 King James Version

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


The correlation between the two teachings is not for the purpose of suggesting that we receive or maintain eternal life by partaking of Communion, that only memorializes what Christ has already done for us.

"Eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood" refers to believing. It is when we believe (as a result of the Comforter's Ministry) that we receive eternal life. We receive it because we receive Him Who is Eternal.

His flesh is "the Bread of Life, the Bread which came down from Heaven." Believing in His Offering of Himself is what is commanded that men must believe in this Age.

When we do that, we are made partakers of the divine nature (Eternal) hence we receive Eternal Life:


2 Peter 1 King James Version


3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


We have escaped due to receiving of His nature.

I know all of the teachings of the L.O.S.T. (the Loss Of Salvation Teachers) and I can already tell you how it will go if you try to present proof texts that conflict with Scripture's clear teaching that salvation in Christ is eternal and cannot be lost: you will present a proof text, and I will answer it. You will not respond to my address of that proof text but will then go on to the next proof text in your array. I know this because this is how it goes every time the L.O.S.T. try to teach a doctrine that conflicts with Scripture. THat's not arrogance, that is simply the facts that can be verified in the public record.

So let's deal with one of the proof texts as an example. The response to my last passage quoted, 2 Peter 1:3-4, would be met with this:


2 Peter 2:20-22 King James Version

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


The reasoning is that in view are those who were "saved," and they have turned away.

The problem is that the text doesn't carry that out, nor does it negate the clear statements of Scripture that God will not forsake or leave us, and that He will finish the work He has begun in us.

Let's back up and give a broader context to Peter's statement:


2 Peter 2:15-19 King James Version

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.


In v.15 we see reference to the revelation provided in the Old Testament being rejected by men. Peter contrasts that to the rejection of the revelation provided us through Christ and those who write "the other Scriptures."

Those in vv.20-21 certainly have received the knowledge of the truth, and this was through the means Christ said they would, the Comforter.

They are wells without water, as opposed to those who have living water pouring out of their bellies (which I view to be at least in part a reference to the Gospel preached by those who are saved).

They are servants of corruption, seeking to corrupt others with their false doctrine, just as Balaam.

And these folks are already known to God to be eternally damned v.17).

They are false teachers:


2 Peter 2 King James Version

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


They are false teachers, not believers who turn away. They were never saved, and Hell is awaiting them. Eternal Judgment is awaiting them.


Continued...

 

This is a parallel passage to Jude:


Jude King James Version


3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.



Both Peter and Jude make it clear who it is that is being spoken of: false teachers. Men ordained to Eternal Judgment. Deniers of Jesus Christ. This is the same structure of Hebrews 10:26-29: a contrast between saved and unsaved, not between Christians who fall away and Christians that do not.

Jude goes on:


12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


They have a reservation in Hell, Silverhair. Their fate has already been sealed.

So we do not see Peter speaking about Christians who fall away, but false teachers that God already knows will end in Eternal Judgment.

And we are to contend with men like that. Contend for the Faith that delivered once and for all. That faith is in Christ and when we believe on Him we receive Eternal Life:


1 John 5:11-13 King James Version

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


God has given us eternal life, not—God will give us eternal life if we make it through without falling away.

This eternal life is because we are in Him in Eternal Union. If we have the Son, we have eternal life.

John is writing that men might believe on His Name and thus have eternal life. And that we, those of us that have Christ—already have eternal life.


Continued...

 

Sanctified equates to being Holy. From the view of God, those that have trusted in Christ Jesus are Holy but from where we, as still sinful man, stand we are being made Holy. As Christians we are to grow in our sanctification, become more Christ like. We will be like Christ, holy, when we are in heaven but not until then.

As I had said before, as long as we are in Christ we are saved but if one rejects Christ Jesus then they have rejected the salvation they once had.

Some people hold to the OSAS idea as biblical, I do not. I see verses that tell me that people can and some do fall away and in real life we see people that have rejected their faith or have turned from a true faith in the Son to a false one. My sister in law was turned away to Mormonism.

In order for someone to fall away they have to have at one time believed. You can not fall from a place you have not been.

Peter gives a clear warning to believers that they can be led away into error. 2Pe 3:17 If one rejects faith for a works salvation do you think they are still saved? Gal 5:4 would say no.

I read Heb 6:4-6 and see a clear description that a believer can actually fall away. For someone to reject the faith they once had they have to now think it is false.