Romans 8:8

[Van]

NASB
and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Here we have the ambiguous phrase "in the flesh" and therefore we have folks who weaponize the ambiguity to push false claims. Does "in the flesh" always refer to the same condition? Nope. Our incarnate Christ was "in the flesh" yet God was "well pleased."

So how is this phrase used? First, one usage is to refer to our physical life, even when spiritually born anew. Thus believers can be "in the flesh" (physically alive) and please God. (Philemon 1:16)

A second usage is found in Romans 8:6-8:

NASB
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.​

Here we see "in the flesh" refers to those whose mind is set on worldly or fleshly desires, rather than spiritual desires. So "in the flesh" refers to anyone whose mind is set on sinfulness.

This view is also presented in 1 Peter 4:2:

NASB
so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human lusts, but for the will of God.​

Thus to be "in the flesh" refers to both having the capacity to live according to human lusts or to live according to the will of God. Thus, even after being born anew, we have Limited Autonomous Will.

In summary Romans 8:8 refers to those whose mind is set on human lusts, and therefore cannot please God.

 

[37818]

Romans 8:8-9, is self defined, ". . . So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. . . ."

 

[Van]

Romans 8:8-9, is self defined, ". . . So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. . . ."

You seem to be appending verse 8 to verse 9. However verse 8 ends the sentence starting in verse 6 according to some but certainly not all translations.

To claim those indwelt cannot "quench the Spirit" by setting their minds of fleshly desires is unbiblical.

If an indwelt person sets their mind on the Spirit, then they are "in the Spirit" but if on the world's or the flesh's desires, then they are in the flesh.

 

[Marooncat79]

Correct. Lost people are “in the flesh”. Therefore they can do nothing within themselves to please God until God gives them the faith to believe the Gospel

 

[37818]

You seem to be appending verse 8 to verse 9. However verse 8 ends the sentence starting in verse 6 according to some but certainly not all translations.

To claim those indwelt cannot "quench the Spirit" by setting their minds of fleshly desires is unbiblical.

If an indwelt person sets their mind on the Spirit, then they are "in the Spirit" but if on the world's or the flesh's desires, then they are in the flesh.

. . . υμεις δε ουκ εστε εν σαρκι αλλ εν πνευματι ειπερ πνευμα θεου οικει εν υμιν . . . .
. . . But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. . . .

 

[JD731]

NASB
and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Here we have the ambiguous phrase "in the flesh" and therefore we have folks who weaponize the ambiguity to push false claims. Does "in the flesh" always refer to the same condition? Nope. Our incarnate Christ was "in the flesh" yet God was "well pleased."

So how is this phrase used? First, one usage is to refer to our physical life, even when spiritually born anew. Thus believers can be "in the flesh" (physically alive) and please God. (Philemon 1:16)

A second usage is found in Romans 8:6-8:

NASB
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.​

Here we see "in the flesh" refers to those whose mind is set on worldly or fleshly desires, rather than spiritual desires. So "in the flesh" refers to anyone whose mind is set on sinfulness.

This view is also presented in 1 Peter 4:2:

NASB
so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human lusts, but for the will of God.​

Thus to be "in the flesh" refers to both having the capacity to live according to human lusts or to live according to the will of God. Thus, even after being born anew, we have Limited Autonomous Will.

In summary Romans 8:8 refers to those whose mind is set on human lusts, and therefore cannot please God.

"Contrast" in chapter 8 is the watch word. Context is very important here. The chapter begins with a "therefore" meaning we must understand the teaching in relation to the previous chapter.

There is "therefore" now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:1

So, the contrast here is between the Law, or works of righteousness, as opposed to Jesus Christ, who is our righteousness, and in whom the believers reside, according to the statement in the verse that says, "to them that are in Christ Jesus."

Later in the chapter we are told that Jesus Christ is in us, that is in the body of each believer and so, we are in Jesus and Jesus is in us in the person of his Spirit and we are now sons of God and have all the privileges of sons and are safe forever. The Spirit is God in us and is imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

There are not two chapters that are more important to understanding God's salvation than chapters 7 and chapter 8. Chapter 7 has a man attempting with sincerity to keep the law of God only to find that the very law that he loves ultimately condemns him because try as he might he does not have the power in himself to keep the law and he is frustrated by it. He focuses his attention on the tenth commandment, thou shalt not covet. look what he says;

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead (death means separation) to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So, contextually, we now know that the contrasts are drawn from someone who has experienced living under the law of God and has also experienced the freedom from the law by coming under a new law, the law of Christ, which instead of demanding righteousness by the works of the flesh, gives righteousness by being united with him and being in him and by his presence in his body.

There is much to know here but those who are attempting to establish their theology from Rom 8 without understanding that it is a Jewish context beginning at Rom 7:1 through Rom 11 from which these truths are being illustrated will likely not come to a full knowledge of what it means to be saved by Jesus Christ.

So, "in the flesh" just means someone attempting to live and please God by a principle that does not include being in Christ and Christ being in him.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Van]

. . . υμεις δε ουκ εστε εν σαρκι αλλ εν πνευματι ειπερ πνευμα θεου οικει εν υμιν . . . .
. . . But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. . . .

Why repeat by implication your speculation, without providing additional explanation? If an indwelt person sets their mind on the Spirit, then they are "in the Spirit" but if on the world's or the flesh's desires, then they are in the flesh.

 

[Van]

"Contrast" in chapter 8 is the watch word. Context is very important here. The chapter begins with a "therefore" meaning we must understand the teaching in relation to the previous chapter.

There is "therefore" now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:1

So, the contrast here is between the Law, or works of righteousness, as opposed to Jesus Christ, who is our righteousness, and in whom the believers reside, according to the statement in the verse that says, "to them that are in Christ Jesus."

Later in the chapter we are told that Jesus Christ is in us, that is in the body of each believer and so, we are in Jesus and Jesus is in us in the person of his Spirit and we are now sons of God and have all the privileges of sons and are safe forever. The Spirit is God in us and is imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

There are not two chapters that are more important to understanding God's salvation than chapters 7 and chapter 8. Chapter 7 has a man attempting with sincerity to keep the law of God only to find that the very law that he loves ultimately condemns him because try as he might he does not have the power in himself to keep the law and he is frustrated by it. He focuses his attention on the tenth commandment, thou shalt not covet. look what he says;

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead (death means separation) to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So, contextually, we now know that the contrasts are drawn from someone who has experienced living under the law of God and has also experienced the freedom from the law by coming under a new law, the law of Christ, which instead of demanding righteousness by the works of the flesh, gives righteousness by being united with him and being in him and by his presence in his body.

There is much to know here but those who are attempting to establish their theology from Rom 8 without understanding that it is a Jewish context beginning at Rom 7:1 through Rom 11 from which these truths are being illustrated will likely not come to a full knowledge of what it means to be saved by Jesus Christ.

So, "in the flesh" just means someone attempting to live and please God by a principle that does not include being in Christ and Christ being in him.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The "therefore" refers to the previous passage, chapter demarcations did not exist in the original as far as we know.

First we are placed spiritually into Christ. Then we undergo the washing of regeneration together with Christ. This results in being born anew, a new creation, created for good works. Thus the now refers to those who have been placed in Christ which only began after Christ died on the cross. The OT Saints were not regenerated or made perfect until after Christ died.

Our indwelt Spirit is NOT the imputed righteousness of Christ. We are made righteous, then indwelt.

"In the flesh" does NOT mean to be unregenerate. That is a complete fiction as demonstrated in the OP.

The "Law" of the Spirit of Life refers to the axiomatic truth that God's Spirit provides life eternal.

 

[37818]

Why repeat by implication your speculation, without providing additional explanation? If an indwelt person sets their mind on the Spirit, then they are "in the Spirit" but if on the world's or the flesh's desires, then they are in the flesh.

To put it simply, the believer indwelt by God's Spirit is counted as not being in the flesh per Romans 8:6-8.

 

[Van]

To put it simply, the believer indwelt by God's Spirit is counted as not being in the flesh per Romans 8:6-8.

You just repeated your claim again. As shown, a believe can be "in the flesh." That is why Paul wrote:

1Thessalonians 5:19-22
Do not quench the Spirit, do not utterly reject prophecies,
but examine everything; hold firmly to that which is good, abstain from every form of evil.​

If a believer sets his or her mind on worldly or fleshly desires, they are "in the flesh" and cannot please God.

 

[37818]

You just repeated your claim again. As shown, a believe can be "in the flesh." That is why Paul wrote:

1Thessalonians 5:19-22
Do not quench the Spirit, do not utterly reject prophecies,
but examine everything; hold firmly to that which is good, abstain from every form of evil.​

If a believer sets his or her mind on worldly or fleshly desires, they are "in the flesh" and cannot please God.

So what does your view mean? Christians can become lost? Romans 8:8-9?

 

[Van]

Consider alternate translation choices for "en" in the phrase "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit."

NASB However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Alternate interpretation: However, you are not with the flesh but with the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.​

This interpretation makes sense, and fits the context!

 

[Van]

So what does your view mean? Christians can become lost? Romans 8:8-9?

Born anew Christians cannot be lost, but they can lose the rewards from Christ for effective ministry. (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

 

[kyredneck]

To put it simply, the believer indwelt by God's Spirit is counted as not being in the flesh per Romans 8:6-8.

Agree. But the Saints ever have 'the conflict' between the flesh and the Spirit in this realm. Romans 7 describes the conflict every redeemed, born from above, child of God experiences while in this temporal realm of sin and woe.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. Ro 7

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. Gal 5

Old Baptist Hymn - 'Conflict'

I am a stranger here below,
And what I am 'tis hard to know,
I am so vile, so prone to sin,
I fear that I'm not born again.

When I experience call to mind,
My understanding is so blind,
All feeling sense seems to be gone,
Which makes me fear that I am wrong.

I find myself out of the way;
My thoughts are often gone astray;
Like one alone I seem to be;
Oh! is there any one like me?

So far from God I seem to lie,
Which makes me often weep and cry;
I fear at last that I shall fall,
For if a saint, the least of all.

I seldom find a heart to pray,
So many things step in my way;
Thus filled with doubts, I ask to know;
Come, tell me, is it thus with you?

So, by experience, I do know
There's nothing good that I can do;
I can not satisfy the law,
Nor hope nor comfort from it draw.

My nature is so prone to sin,
Which makes my duty so unclean,
That when I count up all the cost,
If not free grace, then I am lost.

 

[Van]

Roman 7:5 (NET)
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

Romans 7:5 (Interpretative translation)
For when we were with the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

 

[kyredneck]

(Interpretative translation)

Is this another one of those Vanology things? BibleHub doesn't seem to recognize it.

 

[tyndale1946]

Agree. But the Saints ever have 'the conflict' between the flesh and the Spirit in this realm. Romans 7 describes the conflict every redeemed, born from above, child of God experiences while in this temporal realm of sin and woe.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. Ro 7

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. Gal 5

Old Baptist Hymn - 'Conflict'

I am a stranger here below,
And what I am 'tis hard to know,
I am so vile, so prone to sin,
I fear that I'm not born again.

When I experience call to mind,
My understanding is so blind,
All feeling sense seems to be gone,
Which makes me fear that I am wrong.

I find myself out of the way;
My thoughts are often gone astray;
Like one alone I seem to be;
Oh! is there any one like me?

So far from God I seem to lie,
Which makes me often weep and cry;
I fear at last that I shall fall,
For if a saint, the least of all.

I seldom find a heart to pray,
So many things step in my way;
Thus filled with doubts, I ask to know;
Come, tell me, is it thus with you?

So, by experience, I do know
There's nothing good that I can do;
I can not satisfy the law,
Nor hope nor comfort from it draw.

My nature is so prone to sin,
Which makes my duty so unclean,
That when I count up all the cost,
If not free grace, then I am lost.

Only those who know there condition can sing that song, because it put man where he is and the God of Almighty Glory, where he belongs on his throne!... Not God depending on man but man depending on God... Lost track of how many times I've led and sung that song... Brother Glen

Kentucky... I hope you like this...

 

[Van]

Is this another one of those Vanology things? BibleHub doesn't seem to recognize it.

Good grief, you do not know that "en" cam be translated as "with?"

I know Calvinism uses this "vague" phrase (in the flesh) to push their false doctrine but it is a crock.

 

[kyredneck]

Good grief, you do not know that "en" cam be translated as "with?"

I know Calvinism uses this "vague" phrase (in the flesh) to push their false doctrine but it is a crock.

Good grief, Calvinism has zilch to do with it. Van the sick man sees his boogeyman everywhere.

 

[The Archangel]

Consider alternate translation choices for "en" in the phrase "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit."

NASB However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Alternate interpretation: However, you are not with the flesh but with the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.​

This interpretation makes sense, and fits the context!

It does neither.

Roman 7:5 (NET)
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

Romans 7:5 (Interpretative translation)
For when we were with the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

You seem not to grasp that translating εν + dative is not left open to your whim. The usage here is clearly locative (ie. a location). If you were correct (which you most certainly are not), you would have to translate "and they put His body in the tomb" as "and the put His body with the tomb," which is--of course--absurd.

Translating Greek is far more than looking up words in some lexicon. Grammar matters to translation.

The Archangel