Romans 8:8

[The Archangel]

Yet another "taint so" post devoid of rational argumentation from scripture. I am not arguing the "en" is used in scripture to mean "with" as in "together with" and to refer to the stuff used, i.e. baptized with water or baptized with Spirit. That is a given and not up for debate.

However, I am arguing the "in the flesh" refers to people with their minds set on worldly or fleshly desires, and "in the Spirit" refers to people with their minds set on spiritual desires, whether indwelt or not. This view is applicable to the usage in Romans 8:6-9.

Of course "with" or "together with" is indeed what you've argued here:

Consider alternate translation choices for "en" in the phrase "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit."

NASB However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Alternate interpretation: However, you are not with the flesh but with the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.​

This interpretation makes sense, and fits the context!

The Archangel

 

[SavedByGrace]

It seems you didn't read my post. In the Matthew passage you posted, you cited an idiom. The translations of the idiom (which is not done literally, because it's an idiom) could be "with child" or "pregnant." The usage of εν in the case of the Matthew passage is a red herring to your point.

The Archangel

the problem with you here, as I have seen before, you think that what YOU say is always right, and when you are found out to be WRONG, you post insults! Your responses show that you simply don't understand Greek grammar! You have been shown where Bible translations disagree with you, and you simply dismiss what they say, as their choice of doing things and wrong!

 

[SavedByGrace]

There is quite the difference between using a source and posting a source. Posting a source--as you have done here--is putting forward information that you simply don't understand or know how to use. Citing a source means that you've made an argument for something and have used selected and specific information to demonstrate that your argument is correct.

All you've done is posted a source. And, I'd imagine, you've done so because you've never worked the Greek yourself and, as a result, you're stabbing in the dark.

The Archangel

I posted sources here to show YOU that what you argue for is WRONG. If I had the time, I can give examples from the LXX, the classical Greek works and NT to show that you don't know what you are talking about! But why waste my time with a mister know all?

 

[The Archangel]

I posted sources here to show YOU that what you argue for is WRONG. If I had the time, I can give examples from the LXX, the classical Greek works and NT to show that you don't know what you are talking about! But why waste my time with a mister know all?

Ad hominem and hypocritical given your statement(s) here:

the problem with you here, as I have seen before, you think that what YOU say is always right, and when you are found out to be WRONG, you post insults! Your responses show that you simply don't understand Greek grammar! You have been shown where Bible translations disagree with you, and you simply dismiss what they say, as their choice of doing things and wrong!

You really need to understand that someone offer you correction is not an attack on you. Stating your shortcomings is not an attack on you. However, calling someone "mister know all" is.

You may try to "show" sources, etc., but you have not demonstrated the ability to explain why something is is or isn't "in" based on the Greek.

By citing and relying on other people's translations (which are good, no doubt) you are giving only second-hand information. You might understand that others have translated certain words or phrases in one way or another, but you seem to have no ability to say why they have done so.

Interestingly enough, in the Google book you posted, you seemed to miss that two prepositions were discussed: ἐν and σύν. σύν + Dative mean "with" and ἐν + Dative means "in." If you were correct, which you most certainly are not, that the author wanted to say "with," he would have used σύν not ἐν.

The Archangel

 

[Van]

1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Just a few comments. This verse supports fully the biblical view that when we undergo the washing of regeneration (together with Christ) we have been immersed into Christ's Spirit. The result of our new birth is that we are made holy by the blood of the Lamb, and we are fully justified (past, present and future) from the consequence of our sin. The "name of the Lord Jesus Christ" refers to His life giving attribute of washing away our sin by His precious blood. In or better within the Spirit of our God, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the washing of regeneration occurs when a person is regenerated or made alive, and where are we made alive - together with Christ, thus after being put in union with Christ by being baptized into His Spirit. It is a lock.

"In the name" refers to Christ's attribute of being "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." "In the Spirit" seems better translated as "by the Spirit of our [Triune] God."

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ad hominem and hypocritical given your statement(s) here:



You really need to understand that someone offer you correction is not an attack on you. Stating your shortcomings is not an attack on you. However, calling someone "mister know all" is.

You may try to "show" sources, etc., but you have not demonstrated the ability to explain why something is is or isn't "in" based on the Greek.

By citing and relying on other people's translations (which are good, no doubt) you are giving only second-hand information. You might understand that others have translated certain words or phrases in one way or another, but you seem to have no ability to say why they have done so.

Interestingly enough, in the Google book you posted, you seemed to miss that two prepositions were discussed: ἐν and σύν. σύν + Dative mean "with" and ἐν + Dative means "in." If you were correct, which you most certainly are not, that the author wanted to say "with," he would have used σύν not ἐν.

The Archangel

the SIMPLE fact is, that ἐν + Dative does not always and only mean IN!

 

[The Archangel]

the SIMPLE fact is, that ἐν + Dative does not always and only mean IN!

But why wouldn't it? What parameters in the the Greek suggest a different understanding? That is what I'm suspecting you can't answer.

The Archangel

 

[SavedByGrace]

But why wouldn't it? What parameters in the the Greek suggest a different understanding? That is what I'm suspecting you can't answer.

The Archangel

Are you hard of understanding or just playing dumb?

I am NOT denying that it CAN mean IN, but saying that it CAN also mean something else

Can you understand what I am saying

 

[The Archangel]

Are you hard of understanding or just playing dumb?

I am NOT denying that it CAN mean IN, but saying that it CAN also mean something else

Can you understand what I am saying

The choice of translation is not based on a whim--or what you want it to say. There are definite parameters in the grammar which allow for different translations. None of which you've been able to demonstrate here.

The Archangel

 

[SavedByGrace]

The choice of translation is not based on a whim--or what you want it to say. There are definite parameters in the grammar which allow for different translations. None of which you've been able to demonstrate here.

The Archangel

In the use of the preposition in Matthew 1.18, there are MANY English translations that use WITH. And you still think that you are right. Such is your arrogance

 

[The Archangel]

In the use of the preposition in Matthew 1.18, there are MANY English translations that use WITH. And you still think that you are right. Such is your arrogance

You seemed to have missed the discussion. Literally the phrase is "to have in the womb." You are quite wrong.

The Archangel

 

[SavedByGrace]

You seemed to have missed the discussion. Literally the phrase is "to have in the womb." You are quite wrong.

The Archangel

I get the distinct impression that you like to argue for the sake of it!

You IGNORE the English translations that use the English word WITH

I do agree that the literal meaning in Matthew 1.18 is to be pregnant

As I have said before context is very important

 

[The Archangel]

I get the distinct impression that you like to argue for the sake of it!

You IGNORE the English translations that use the English word WITH

I do agree that the literal meaning in Matthew 1.18 is to be pregnant

As I have said before context is very important

So.. EV + dative is "in."

The Archangel

 

[SavedByGrace]

So.. EV + dative is "in."

The Archangel

and OTHER English words!

WHY are we wasting time on this, when you must know that the preposition "en" + dative, does not only mean IN?

As I have said, looks like you like to argue for the sake of it!

 

[SavedByGrace]

You seemed to have missed the discussion. Literally the phrase is "to have in the womb." You are quite wrong.

The Archangel

see for youself the different English words used for "en" in this Versions

Matthew 1:18 Parallel: Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

My last on this

 

[The Archangel]

and OTHER English words!

WHY are we wasting time on this, when you must know that the preposition "en" + dative, does not only mean IN?

As I have said, looks like you like to argue for the sake of it!

Because it doesn't mean what you want it to mean when if fits your whimsy. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, I'm arguing for the sake of truth. Also, you really need to understand the difference between reading the original and giving a translation.

The Archangel

 

[JD731]

Your argument seems an empty sack to me.

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),​

The phrase "together with Christ" comes from a root meaning to be in "union." And what was our status when put in union, we were dead in our sins.

The bible means what it says.

An empty sack, eh? Interesting.

Van, even if you are right on your position, which you are not, Eph 2:5 would not be a good place to prove it. Why? because the context will not allow your interpretation , if you are honest about the context. This passage does not teach that a sinner is "with Christ" when he is born again. Our conversation was not about being "with" Christ anyways, but "in" Christ.

You are not trying to understand these passages in the context of the transitory nature of the times in which they were written and the obvious change in God's dealing with both Jews and gentiles since the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which at the time of writing of Ephesians is 30 years later. He is letting the gentiles know in this letter to a representative gentile church that God has revealed what Paul calls, the "mystery of Christ," meaning a truth that has been hidden in God and only now revealed by the Spirit of God, and it concerns the gentiles and the Jews and his purpose in this age of forming the body of Christ, the church, with believers from both of these people groups . (see note A below for a definition of the mystery of Christ) Where the words, both, also, together, and such like is in the text, it is referring to Jews and gentiles. Where a distinction is made you will see the contrasting term, Ye and us, yours and ours, etc. For an example look here.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (See note B below).

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I have noticed that the theme of Ephesians is never mentioned by people who use the verse for proof texting. The theme is the mystery of Christ and the purpose of this epistle is to make us understand the historical narrative in the book of Acts where God first began giving his Spirit to the remnant of Jewish believers and 10 years later added the gentiles because he is forming a bride for his son. How would we know what God is doing if we were not able to see his plan play out in real time and then have the apostle Paul explain it to us in his 13 letters to the churches? (see Note C below)


NOTE A
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Verse 6 is the definition of the mystery of Christ.

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

NOTE B
Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

NOTE C
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (the we are the Jews. They were first to trust in Christ)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (the ye in this verse are the gentiles who had not previous relationships or promises from God but whom he accepted later with the Jews, who had both)
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.



8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship (Jews and gentiles both in the body) of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

It is not a good idea to proof text using a verse taken out of context. You should be able to see that Eph 2:5 is speaking in the context of the Jews and gentiles being together in the body and therefore being with Christ, the head of the body and therefore we are in the body, not the Spirit, in this context. Your theology on this point seems to be a little off the bubble.

The church of Jesus Christ is the wisdom of God on display for both heavenly beings and men. It is unique to this age, from the resurrection of Christ until the day of the LORD. God is good.

 

[Van]

An empty sack, eh? Interesting.

Van, even if you are right on your position, which you are not, Eph 2:5 would not be a good place to prove it. Why? because the context will not allow your interpretation , if you are honest about the context. This passage does not teach that a sinner is "with Christ" when he is born again. Our conversation was not about being "with" Christ anyways, but "in" Christ.

You are not trying to understand these passages in the context of the transitory nature of the times in which they were written and the obvious change in God's dealing with both Jews and gentiles since the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which at the time of writing of Ephesians is 30 years later. He is letting the gentiles know in this letter to a representative gentile church that God has revealed what Paul calls, the "mystery of Christ," meaning a truth that has been hidden in God and only now revealed by the Spirit of God, and it concerns the gentiles and the Jews and his purpose in this age of forming the body of Christ, the church, with believers from both of these people groups . (see note A below for a definition of the mystery of Christ) Where the words, both, also, together, and such like is in the text, it is referring to Jews and gentiles. Where a distinction is made you will see the contrasting term, Ye and us, yours and ours, etc. For an example look here.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (See note B below).

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I have noticed that the theme of Ephesians is never mentioned by people who use the verse for proof texting. The theme is the mystery of Christ and the purpose of this epistle is to make us understand the historical narrative in the book of Acts where God first began giving his Spirit to the remnant of Jewish believers and 10 years later added the gentiles because he is forming a bride for his son. How would we know what God is doing if we were not able to see his plan play out in real time and then have the apostle Paul explain it to us in his 13 letters to the churches? (see Note C below)


NOTE A
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Verse 6 is the definition of the mystery of Christ.

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

NOTE B
Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

NOTE C
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (the we are the Jews. They were first to trust in Christ)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (the ye in this verse are the gentiles who had not previous relationships or promises from God but whom he accepted later with the Jews, who had both)
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.



8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship (Jews and gentiles both in the body) of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

It is not a good idea to proof text using a verse taken out of context. You should be able to see that Eph 2:5 is speaking in the context of the Jews and gentiles being together in the body and therefore being with Christ, the head of the body and therefore we are in the body, not the Spirit, in this context. Your theology on this point seems to be a little off the bubble.

The church of Jesus Christ is the wisdom of God on display for both heavenly beings and men. It is unique to this age, from the resurrection of Christ until the day of the LORD. God is good.

1) Ephesians 2:5 does teach contextually that a person is in union with Christ when they undergo the washing of regeneration.

2) Your implication I might not respond honestly is the stuff of a holier than thou attitude.

3) To be "in" Christ is to be with Christ and in union with Christ. No need for distinctions without a difference.

4) The false argument that if the main point of a passage is "A" then other points, such as "B" or "C" are not being also taught is without merit.

5) The false charge that the scriptures used to support the position are just "proof texting" meaning taken out of context, is without merit.

6)

1 Corinthians12:13​

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one [spiritual] body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?​

Here again we see that we are "together with Christ" because we have been immersed in His Spirit.

 

[JD731]

1) Ephesians 2:5 does teach contextually that a person is in union with Christ when they undergo the washing of regeneration.

2) Your implication I might not respond honestly is the stuff of a holier than thou attitude.

3) To be "in" Christ is to be with Christ and in union with Christ. No need for distinctions without a difference.

4) The false argument that if the main point of a passage is "A" then other points, such as "B" or "C" are not being also taught is without merit.

5) The false charge that the scriptures used to support the position are just "proof texting" meaning taken out of context, is without merit.

6)

1 Corinthians12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one [spiritual] body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?​

Here again we see that we are "together with Christ" because we have been immersed in His Spirit.

Well, I could be wrong but not trying to be holier than thou. I doubt that I am nearly as holy as you because it was I who offended you and you in no wise offended me, so I apologize for offending you. Thanks for the exercise.

 

[Van]

Well, I could be wrong but not trying to be holier than thou. I doubt that I am nearly as holy as you because it was I who offended you and you in no wise offended me, so I apologize for offending you. Thanks for the exercise.

You said I might not respond honestly, and that was condescending.

1) Ephesians 2:5 does teach contextually that a person is in union with Christ when they undergo the washing of regeneration.

2) To be "in" Christ is to be with Christ and in union with Christ. No need for distinctions without a difference.

3) The false argument that if the main point of a passage is "A" then other points, such as "B" or "C" are not being also taught is without merit.

4) The false charge that the scriptures used to support the position are just "proof texting" meaning taken out of context, is without merit.

5)

1 Corinthians12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one [spiritual] body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?​

Here again we see that we are "together with Christ" because we have been immersed in His Spirit.