Featured TULIP Was Never Alive to Begin With

The Father and Son agreed from all eternity that he would come and died as the sin bearer, so God the father really nailed Jesus to that Cross, and Jesus agreed!

 

Thank you Jon, for sharing your changed belief in your present view of the atonement. In your present belief system, let me try to summarize it, based on its presuppositions & let me know if I am accurately articulating what you believe & make any corrections.

Presupposition#1: Jesus Christ suffered & died at the hands of wicked men by God's pre-determined plan/will.
Presupposition#2: Jesus Christ suffered & died to redeem mankind from the bondage of sin & death.
Presupposition#3: God sent His Son as an offering?
Presupposition#4: Man was purchased with His blood - not purchased from anyone but bought with a price.
Presupposition#5: Men esteemed Christ stricken, afflicted by God when in fact He was bearing our sins, sharing our infirmity.
Presupposition#6: He became a curse & sin for us, suffered & died under the bondage that held us captive.
Presupposition#7: God vindicated Christ by raising Him on the 3rd day, glorifying Him, giving Him a name that is above every name.
Presupposition#8: He is a life giving Spirit, the Propitiation for the sins of the world through which we escape the wrath to come.
Presupposition#9: In Him we are reborn, recreated.
Presupposition10: In Him there is no condemnation & we are freed from the bonds of sin & death.

I have also summarized your understanding of the Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory as you wrote on here and the presuppositions you think this theory is based upon. Please check them out for accuracy as well and make any corrections.

Presuppostion#1: Jesus Christ suffered & died on the cross as a substitute for sinners.
Presupposition#2: God transfered our sins (&/or our guilt) from us & imputed them to Christ.
Presupposition#3: Christ stood in our place and suffered the punishment instead of us.
Presupposition#4: This was a full payment for sins.
Presupposition#5: This full payment of sins satisfied both the wrath & the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising Divine justice.

Once these can be establlished and agreed upon, then we can move forward in the discussion as to which presuppositions are biblical & which are not. Thank you.

 

Thanks for your response Jon. Feel free to re-work #4 to be more accurate to how you understand it. Thanks.

 

#4: Jesus had to suffer the full punishment we deserved for our (second)??? and so that we would not [suffer the full punishment] (a type of sin debt) Would it sound better (as it is difficult what you mean here): Jesus had to suffer the full punishment for our sin debt that we deserved, so that we would not have to suffer the consequences of this sin debt. Let me know.

Also, you keep talking about John Calvin's errors concerning PSA theory. Could you quote John Calvin to show his error on this. Thanks.

 

He thinks Calvin formed and got his theology of Psa from legal means and philosophy, and not from the Bible itself!

 

Don't mean to interrupted you brethren but on the same note as the cross I thought I would post lyrics to a song I led in church for many years called... Must Jesus Bear The Cross Alone?... By Thomas Shepherd originally written in 1693... Brother Glen

1. Must Jesus bear the cross alone,
   And all the world go free?
   No, there’s a cross for everyone,
   And there’s a cross for me.
2. How happy are the saints above,
   Who once went sorr’wing here!
   But now they taste unmingled love,
   And joy without a tear.
3. The consecrated cross I’ll bear
   Till death shall set me free;
   And then go home my crown to wear,
   For there’s a crown for me.
4. Upon the crystal pavement down
   At Jesus’ pierced feet,
   Joyful I’ll cast my golden crown
   And His dear Name repeat.
5. O precious cross! O glorious crown!
   O resurrection day!
   When Christ the Lord from heav’n comes down
   And bears my soul away.