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Featured 1 Corinthians 6:16-17

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jun 10, 2022.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    In these two verses a passive verb is translated as if the person is doing the action, in a little less than one third of the English Translations on Biblegateway. And the list includes such well regarded versions as the LEB and NASB. However the NET does not engage in the grammatical transformation.

    The question for study is why do so many translations alter the passive grammar and translate the word as meaning joins himself.

    Does anyone know the answer?

    If we join ourselves with Christ, then why does 1 Corinthians 1:30 say God puts us into Christ? The questionable translation choice also suggests that we save ourselves by joining ourselves with Christ.
     
    #1 Van, Jun 10, 2022
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LEB
    But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with him.

    NASB
    But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

    NET
    But the one united with the Lord is one spirit with him.

    NKJV
    But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

    And here is a snippet from Thayer's Lexicon concerning the meaning of kollaō (G2853):
    "in the N. T. only the passive is found, with reflexive force, to join oneself to, cleave to;" ​
     
    #2 Van, Jun 10, 2022
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    #3 Van, Jun 10, 2022
  4. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    Its a passive verb. It is not something that the subject is actively doing. it is an action that is undergoing or recieving the action. it is acted on them

    This is God who is actively joining us together with him.
     
    #4 Eternally Grateful, Jun 10, 2022
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  5. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Hehehehe
     
    #5 Marooncat79, Jun 10, 2022
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  6. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Point of information: κολλώμενος is not a verb; it is a participle.

    The Archangel
     
    #6 The Archangel, Jun 10, 2022
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for nothing, I wanted to know why a passive verb was translated as a active verb.

    Here is how the word is parsed: "Verb - Present Passive Participle - Nominative Singular Masculine

    "A participle is a word that has both the properties of a verb and a noun. In English, participles are typically formed by adding ing to the stem of a verb (for example: eating)
     
    #7 Van, Jun 10, 2022
  8. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    That is not how it is parsed. It is not a verb. Having properties of a verb and a noun, it is neither a verb nor a noun. Participles are their own animals.

    The Archangel
     
    #8 The Archangel, Jun 10, 2022
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Still no answer to the question. Passive versus active. Do humans join themselves to Christ, or does God put them into Christ spiritually? Now I know you claim the action of being joined is not a verb, but I did not find any support for that claim.
     
    #9 Van, Jun 10, 2022
  10. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    My suspicion is that it's related to the main verb, which is not κολλώμενος (because it's a participle). The translation "is joined" as in the ESV and the NKJV (as you posted) is proper of the passive participle. Why the NASB gives it as a middle, I do not know. But it matters little to what Paul is getting at in this particular passage.

    The Archangel
     
    #10 The Archangel, Jun 10, 2022
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  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, so "is joined" translates the Greek grammar correctly. And Joined himself changes the "participle" to active or middle voice. Since humans do not join themselves to Christ, I think the correct translation matters a whole lot.
     
    #11 Van, Jun 10, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
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  12. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Paul likely uses the same passive participle to maintain the parallel thought. So... context. That's why it doesn't matter as much as you think it does.

    The Archangel
     
    #12 The Archangel, Jun 10, 2022
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I will leave reading Paul's mind to you, and stick with what Paul actually said "But he who is joined..." After all, that is in agreement with more than 40 of the English translations on Biblegateway.
     
    #13 Van, Jun 10, 2022
  14. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Noticing established patterns of writing and thought is hardly "mind reading."

    The Archangel
     
    #14 The Archangel, Jun 11, 2022
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Since a vast number of published translators think differently, why are you so smart as to see "established patterns of writing and thoughts."
     
    #15 Van, Jun 11, 2022
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1 Corinthians 6:17 (interpretive translation)
    Yet the one being joined to the Lord is united with His Spirit. We are in His Spirit and His Spirit is in us.
     
    #16 Van, Jun 11, 2022
  17. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    "A vast number?" Clearly, that's not all. There is a reason for the "thinking differently."

    The Archangel
     
    #17 The Archangel, Jun 11, 2022
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  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1 Corinthians 6:17 (interpretive translation)
    Yet the one being joined to the Lord is united with His Spirit. We are in His Spirit and His Spirit is in us.
     
    #18 Van, Jun 11, 2022
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    There is no reference or relationship to 'salvation' being involved,
    other than they 'that are joined' are already saved.


    1 Corinthians 6:17

    He that is joined unto the Lord
    As every elect person is; his whole person, soul and body, is united to the Lord Jesus Christ, to his whole person, as God-man and Mediato
     
    #19 Alan Gross, Jun 12, 2022
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  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    The question for study is why do so many translations alter the passive grammar and translate the word as meaning joins himself.

    Look at the context of these verses. What do they tell us?

    Paul uses the same phrasing:
    he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her
    he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him

    The grammatical construction allows for either a passive or middle understanding of the participle so we must look to context for an answer.

    The context is focused on the volition of those involved. A middle voice. Are they forced to go into a harlot {passive} NO. Are they drawn to the harlot {middle} YES. It is the same with Christ we are not forced, we are drawn to Him. Only God saves but He only saves the willing.

    They were not forced {passive} to do either of these things. We see this view carried out in the next verse where they are to actively reject sin.
     
    #20 Silverhair, Jun 12, 2022
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