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Challenging Common Translation Choices
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
BasketFinch
Active Member
Yes. You posted Romans 10:18 earlier. As I said then in reply to your posting Romans 10:18, that isn't the passage in Van's post.
Another Greek word to consider challenging the common translation choice is "kosmos" (G2889). The literal meaning refers to the components of a system, thus our planet, composed of water and soil and other non-organic or organic material is a "kosmos." So the challenge is to determine what system is in view from the context. By using the ambiguous English word "world" the translators have chosen to leave the interpretive understanding to the reader.
Let us consider John 3:16. God loved the "kosmos" in this way, He gave is unique Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life. Was the object of God's love for animals, trees, rocks or water? No. His love was directed toward humanity. So the system in view is humanity, not our planet.
If the idea had been only the Elect, then the verse should have read "... so that they would not perish..." But that is not how it reads, instead the verse addresses a subset of the "system." Therefore why not translate Kosmos here as "humanity?" One reason is to avoid the firestorm that would be waged by those holding the "Elect" view. Do other reasons come to mind?
Let us consider John 3:16. God loved the "kosmos" in this way, He gave is unique Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life. Was the object of God's love for animals, trees, rocks or water? No. His love was directed toward humanity. So the system in view is humanity, not our planet.
If the idea had been only the Elect, then the verse should have read "... so that they would not perish..." But that is not how it reads, instead the verse addresses a subset of the "system." Therefore why not translate Kosmos here as "humanity?" One reason is to avoid the firestorm that would be waged by those holding the "Elect" view. Do other reasons come to mind?
my point is ….NOT …regarding added words on that verse. It is about the phrasing used in that verse.
The NASB reads. “…so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life TO ALL MEN. “. This one act of righteousness is Jesus dying. Paying the penalty of our sin. The questionable part is. Who are the recipients of this righteous act? ALL MEN ? Or SAVED MEN. ? The NASB IF Not understood properly makes it almost sound as if unsaved men are justified and can still remain in their unsaved condition. I was stating that This “all men” at the close of this verse makes more sense using the KJV translation. Because the KJV. States. “Free gift of God. “. This free gift ….we know IS SALVATION which IS….available to. “All men “ So what I am getting at is this ….Salvation is for. “All men. As the KJV TELLS US. BUT. JUSTIFICATION is Not for ALL MEN as the NASB seems to imply. The only ones JUSTIFIED are the ones who have accepted this. “Free gift”. The NASB Can be misunderstood to be saying that all men are justified even if they do Not accept this “free gift. “.
Sounds like circular reasoning to me. First your point is not the added words, but then the "free gift of God" is cited, as if those words were not added?
Compared to the original Hebrew YES. “Free gift of God”. Is NOT In the original Hebrew. Justification. IS. Here is my point once again. And please do not read into this any farther than what I am saying.
though the Hebrew does Not state. “ free gift of God”. AND the NASB translation presents the original HEBREW text more literally by it’ s use of the word. JUSTIFICATION. The way the NASB IS WORDED IS STILL slightly different than the original text slightly altered to the point where the NASB text gives rise to the possible thought that unsaved people are justified before God. that God justifies people and they remain in their unsaved state.
WHERE AS Even though the KJV does not follow the Hebrew by using the word JUSTIFICATION. The words it DOES use seem to make better sense and adheres to the belief that
SALVATION is a free gift of GOD. Available to all men. But. NOT. Accepted by all men.
I do not know how much plainer I can state my concern over the NASB text. If you do not know what I am trying to say by now. Let’s just forget I said it.
Most folks think Romans was originally written in Greek. Certainly the copies existent today are Greek.
If you want an interpretive translation, as the KJV certainly is, try this:
Consequently then as through one offense the means of condemnation entered all humans, and likewise through one righteous act the means of justification of life entered all humans.
At any point in time, the active body of Christ is using the common translations (English in our case) of the day. We are familiar with the renderings, and if a translation differs we do not "like" it. For example, if you memorized verses in the KJV, you might not want to go with a version that differs.
Another problem is that a dismissive mantra might arise such as the HCSB is "quirky."
But, if you take courses, formal or informal, that teach Bible Study methods, you will find yourself asking why this choice rather than that choice? Sometimes the answer is the versions are based on differing texts, CT, MT or TR. But even when looking at the verse same underlying text, translations present very different ideas.
For example, let us look at Romans 10:17, certainly an important text.
ESV
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
CEV
No one can have faith without hearing the message about Christ.
NKJV
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
If we consider these renderings, is faith traveling to us (comes) or is the idea faith is based on or arises from something.
Or does "the word of Christ" refer to the words spoken by Christ rather than declarations made by others about Christ?
And how do we decide what to believe concerning this verse. Some posting on this Board say go with the ones you like or the ones using the most used rendering. Of course that is advocating fallacy.
Here is an interpretive translation based on study of the Greek word meanings.
Accordingly, the faith is based on heeding - moreover heeding the declarations about Christ.
Another problem is that a dismissive mantra might arise such as the HCSB is "quirky."
But, if you take courses, formal or informal, that teach Bible Study methods, you will find yourself asking why this choice rather than that choice? Sometimes the answer is the versions are based on differing texts, CT, MT or TR. But even when looking at the verse same underlying text, translations present very different ideas.
For example, let us look at Romans 10:17, certainly an important text.
ESV
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
CEV
No one can have faith without hearing the message about Christ.
NKJV
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
If we consider these renderings, is faith traveling to us (comes) or is the idea faith is based on or arises from something.
Or does "the word of Christ" refer to the words spoken by Christ rather than declarations made by others about Christ?
And how do we decide what to believe concerning this verse. Some posting on this Board say go with the ones you like or the ones using the most used rendering. Of course that is advocating fallacy.
Here is an interpretive translation based on study of the Greek word meanings.
Accordingly, the faith is based on heeding - moreover heeding the declarations about Christ.
Back to Romans 10:17, should we go with "so then" (NKJV) or "so faith" ESV or "no one" (CEV)? The Greek word means consequently or accordingly, or therefore. I like "accordingly" which forces the reader to look back and ask "according to what?"
The next words in most English translations are translating two Greek words, a definite article (the) and the noun in the nominative case "pistis." Reference to "the faith" usually refers to the information in which we put our trust, i.e. what we believe in. I know nothing of Greek grammar but nouns in the nominative case are used as the subject of sentences.
The next Greek word is the preposition "ex" (ek) which means out of and is used to refer to the source or basis of something. So "the faith" comes from or is based on something.
So far, our study has "Accordingly, the faith is based on..."
The next words in most English translations are translating two Greek words, a definite article (the) and the noun in the nominative case "pistis." Reference to "the faith" usually refers to the information in which we put our trust, i.e. what we believe in. I know nothing of Greek grammar but nouns in the nominative case are used as the subject of sentences.
The next Greek word is the preposition "ex" (ek) which means out of and is used to refer to the source or basis of something. So "the faith" comes from or is based on something.
So far, our study has "Accordingly, the faith is based on..."
The faith is not just the information we believe is true, but what we adhere to, otherwise it is just information and not the faith.
Here is an interpretive translation based on study of the Greek word meanings.
Accordingly, the faith is based on heeding - moreover heeding the declarations about Christ.
Here is an interpretive translation based on study of the Greek word meanings.
Accordingly, the faith is based on heeding - moreover heeding the declarations about Christ.
But, if you take courses, formal or informal, that teach Bible Study methods, you will find yourself asking why this choice rather than that choice? Sometimes the answer is the versions are based on differing texts, CT, MT or TR. But even when looking at the verse same underlying text, translations present very different ideas.
I believe God alone chooses whom He will reveal His word to as well as the interpretation of His word...
to be honest... many who study to show themselves approved .. (and this is in reference to those taking college courses)... often do so.. without God having even chosen them to carry out His word to the masses...
Too many today are going through the motions... because THEY want to do so.. Not because God wants them to..
case in point.. in 2001.. I dropped my daughter off at Faith Baptistt Bible College in Ankeny, Iowa... she attended 4 years... payed for it with her own money... her goal was to be a missionary... 20 years later what is she doing?.. she is a housewife.. with 3 kids...(my grand children).. she married a non believer... she led him to the Lord before they were married.. they are faithfully attending a wonderful church.. but she is Not using the education she spent close to 100,000.00 for...maybe she was just going to this college because she was trying to make me happy?.. next case in point...
when I dropped my daughter off that day,..their was a yuoung man there with his grandfather.. waiting to be admitted also..
his grandfather I recognized as a preacher that frequently spoke at our church... I was hoping maybe those 2 would begin dating.. but 2 years into the college years.. she told me this man had dropped out....
I think he is working construction now.. I do not know...
but MY POINT is.. just because.. one gets training DOES NOT MEAN A THING...!!!.. so I wosh any one on this board would stop spouting off about how valuable this is...
all any of us learn is due to the work of the Holy Spirit... I don't care if Einstein is teaching us.....
and no one will ever learn the word of God.. if the only time they open their bible up is at church!!..
Yes, God has chosen to provide His Revelation in His Word in written form, thus making it available to anyone who studies it. Do we get it wrong sometimes? Of course. Do the traditions of people make it to no effect sometimes? Of course. But God says His word can lead a person to Christ, and since some reject Christ, the opportunity seems rather open.
If a person studies the bible, does that mean they have been chosen to carry God's Word to the "masses?" Nope We are not all given as "Pastors and Teachers."
But we are all commanded to study God's word.
Psalms 119:27
Make me understand the way of Your precepts,
And I will meditate on Your wonders.
Many programs of discipleship include "How to study God's Word."
2 Timothy 3:16-17
Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work.
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Proverbs 2:1-5
My child, if you receive my words, and store up my commands within you,
by making your ear attentive to wisdom, and by turning your heart to understanding,
indeed, if you call out for discernment - raise your voice for understanding -
if you seek it like silver, and search for it like hidden treasure,
then you will understand how to fear the LORD, and you will discover knowledge about God.
My child, if you receive my words, and store up my commands within you,
by making your ear attentive to wisdom, and by turning your heart to understanding,
indeed, if you call out for discernment - raise your voice for understanding -
if you seek it like silver, and search for it like hidden treasure,
then you will understand how to fear the LORD, and you will discover knowledge about God.
James 1:22-25
But be sure you live out the message and do not merely listen to it and so deceive yourselves.
For if someone merely listens to the message and does not live it out, he is like someone who gazes at his own face in a mirror.
For he gazes at himself and then goes out and immediately forgets what sort of person he was.
But the one who peers into the perfect law of liberty and fixes his attention there, and does not become a forgetful listener but one who lives it out - he will be blessed in what he does.
But be sure you live out the message and do not merely listen to it and so deceive yourselves.
For if someone merely listens to the message and does not live it out, he is like someone who gazes at his own face in a mirror.
For he gazes at himself and then goes out and immediately forgets what sort of person he was.
But the one who peers into the perfect law of liberty and fixes his attention there, and does not become a forgetful listener but one who lives it out - he will be blessed in what he does.
When we study a verse, or passage we need to use a sound method of study. We seek the original intent, what the author was trying to convey, by examining the culture, history, and theology, along with the word meanings at the time of writing, the grammar, and the context in which the passage is found.
in regards to this portion of the statement.:
If a person studies the bible, does that mean they have been chosen to carry God's Word to the "masses?" Nope ... We are not all given as "Pastors and Teachers."
who said anything in regards to being chosen to teach to the masses?.... I taught for years... all classes... from children to adult...
I did Not study so I could teach....
I do Not study now so that I can teach..
I do Not know if I will every teach again in my lifetime..
these are Not my choices but God's choices... I am available.. to where ever He would have me go..... why do we have to associate learning the word of God to teaching it?... where did this belief originate..?.. with the disciples...?... can we NOT be servants of God... in waiting?...
I try to spend about 40 hours a week in God's word... why?.. not because I have to teach it... but because I want to... I love God's word.. I love reading a passage and "getting ".. what God wants me to learn from it..
in my studies.. I have come across thousands of translational errors in all translations..
I feel sad that I being unscholared.. never taking college course in God's word.. end up finding things that in my opinion should be self-evident.. that scholars are mixed up on..
should I teach this?.. because I learn things..?... should I even share things I learn?
I do sometimes.... but the issue.. is even if I discover something obvious.... many have Not been prepared by the Holy Spirit to receive it..
then I come across as being overly Pious... as perhaps Paul seemed to some in his day..
so most of the time I sit quietly in groups and let them hash out what THEY want to believe about certain passages..
It is most frustrating Not being able to enlighten people who are Not ready or prepared for it.. but I have learned to live with the knowledge.. by myself..
one day all my journals will be found and published posthumously ....I hope and maybe some may benefit from my years of learning and writing... so far I am up to about 3000 pages.. in my journals.. I only wish I would have began these many years sooner than I did.....
If a person studies the bible, does that mean they have been chosen to carry God's Word to the "masses?" Nope ... We are not all given as "Pastors and Teachers."
who said anything in regards to being chosen to teach to the masses?.... I taught for years... all classes... from children to adult...
I did Not study so I could teach....
I do Not study now so that I can teach..
I do Not know if I will every teach again in my lifetime..
these are Not my choices but God's choices... I am available.. to where ever He would have me go..... why do we have to associate learning the word of God to teaching it?... where did this belief originate..?.. with the disciples...?... can we NOT be servants of God... in waiting?...
I try to spend about 40 hours a week in God's word... why?.. not because I have to teach it... but because I want to... I love God's word.. I love reading a passage and "getting ".. what God wants me to learn from it..
in my studies.. I have come across thousands of translational errors in all translations..
I feel sad that I being unscholared.. never taking college course in God's word.. end up finding things that in my opinion should be self-evident.. that scholars are mixed up on..
should I teach this?.. because I learn things..?... should I even share things I learn?
I do sometimes.... but the issue.. is even if I discover something obvious.... many have Not been prepared by the Holy Spirit to receive it..
then I come across as being overly Pious... as perhaps Paul seemed to some in his day..
so most of the time I sit quietly in groups and let them hash out what THEY want to believe about certain passages..
It is most frustrating Not being able to enlighten people who are Not ready or prepared for it.. but I have learned to live with the knowledge.. by myself..
one day all my journals will be found and published posthumously ....I hope and maybe some may benefit from my years of learning and writing... so far I am up to about 3000 pages.. in my journals.. I only wish I would have began these many years sooner than I did.....