On Nother thread, I asked @JonC some questions about his Penal Substitution Theory.
I asked:
What I would like to know from you is
1. In what way is the Lord Jesus the propitiation for the sins of the world?
2. In what sense did He die for our sins and what did His death achieved. i
3. In what sense did God lay our iniquity upon Him?
4. What does it mean that He became a curse for us? Who cursed Him?
5. How exactly has He borne our sins
6. Precisely how do we escape the coming wrath through Him.
He replied:
What does show up is blood.
In Romans 3:25, we are immediately told that the propitiation was 'by His blood.' In 1 John 1:7, we are told that 'The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all iniquity.' This must surely have reference to 2:2.
This is also in line with the O.T.
Exodus 12:13. 'When I see the blood, I will pass over you.'
Leviticus 17:10. 'For it is the blood that makes atonement for your soul.'
And in other parts of the N.T. eg. Ephesians 1:7; 2:13; Colossians 1:20.
One point I find interesting is that in 1 John 4:10, the sending of Christ as a Propitiation is ascribed to God's love, whilst in Romans 3:25 it is ascribed to His justice.. It puts me in mind of Psalms 85:10.
Thread open for comments.
I asked:
What I would like to know from you is
1. In what way is the Lord Jesus the propitiation for the sins of the world?
2. In what sense did He die for our sins and what did His death achieved. i
3. In what sense did God lay our iniquity upon Him?
4. What does it mean that He became a curse for us? Who cursed Him?
5. How exactly has He borne our sins
6. Precisely how do we escape the coming wrath through Him.
He replied:
I not that my questions 5&6 have not been answered, but for now I would like to consider the answers he has given one at a time.JonC said:The Lord Jesus the Propitiation for the sins of the world because it is in Him that man is reborn (or recreated, born of the Spirit, cleansed) and therefore escape the wrath to come. Christ died for our sins. He is sinless but He "shared in our infirmity". The wages of sin is death. He experienced those wages, however they were earned by us, not Him. The Cross was God reconciling man to Himself, and it is on this basis that we plead with men to be reconciled to God. God lay our iniquity upon Him in the sense that He became like us in every way, to include suffering under sin...but this was OUR sin, not His own. Another way of saying this is that He became a curse for us. Nobody cursed Him, but man considered Him accursed by God (and God vindicated Him against the error).
I cannot accept this. There are three places in Scripture where the Lord Jesus is described as a 'propitiation' (NIV 'atoning sacrifice'). These are Romans 3:25-26; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10. I do not see any immediate context to the New Birth in these verses. That is not to decry the vitally important place of the New Birth in our salvation, but it is to say that the teaching does not show up around Propitiation.JonC said:The Lord Jesus the Propitiation for the sins of the world because it is in Him that man is reborn (or recreated, born of the Spirit, cleansed) and therefore escape the wrath to come.
What does show up is blood.
In Romans 3:25, we are immediately told that the propitiation was 'by His blood.' In 1 John 1:7, we are told that 'The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all iniquity.' This must surely have reference to 2:2.
This is also in line with the O.T.
Exodus 12:13. 'When I see the blood, I will pass over you.'
Leviticus 17:10. 'For it is the blood that makes atonement for your soul.'
And in other parts of the N.T. eg. Ephesians 1:7; 2:13; Colossians 1:20.
One point I find interesting is that in 1 John 4:10, the sending of Christ as a Propitiation is ascribed to God's love, whilst in Romans 3:25 it is ascribed to His justice.. It puts me in mind of Psalms 85:10.
Thread open for comments.