A Dispensationalist View of Calvinism

[JD731]

This is what happens when someone does not realize Yahweh/Jehovah is Christ.

I am a believer in the trinity. The scriptures tells me that God is one in three and three in one and can and does function separately and as one at the same time. Each member has a different role is our salvation, which is initiated by him after there was a need. I have given you verses from Romans 8 and Roms 4 that says God the Father is in heaven and he justifies sinners when they believe what he says to them. Abraham is the example that I used from Romans 4. He lived 2000 years before Jesus was sent down from heaven and took on himself the form of a man so he could die our death as our substitute and save us from our sins. Now logic and reason says that if God says Abraham was justified by his faith in what he said to him, and his believing was imputed to him by God for righteousness and if that justification were salvation, then it would be totally foolish for Christ to die. And, if Abraham were not justified by God when he died, then he died with his guilt of sin on him.

The scriptures says in two places that Jesus washes away the sin of OT believers who were justified by God.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

So, now, since Jesus died and rose again, propitiating God for all sins and has poured out his Spirit on the earth, God justifies any and all who believe in the gospel of Christ, and he gives the Spirit of Christ as a gift to indwell them and the blood of Christ is applied and washes away their sins.

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

OT saints were justified but they were not saved, until Jesus came.

 

[HumbleJoe2888]

AustinC and Kyredneck are the only two making sense on this thread.

 

[timtofly]

Are you aware that you are teaching that God sends fully atoned humans to hell, meaning that those made perfect by Jesus are still condemned by God in your theology.

If you say that lack of faith, not the full payment for sin, is the reason people go to hell, then you both deny the full atonement for at least one sin, and you make salvation contingent on human will, not God's saving grace. What you therefore espouse is salvation and damnation by works, which is what the Judaizers in Galatians were teaching.

I am aware that a human can reject the Atonement that has fully eradicated his sinful condition.

How is salvation contingent on one's choice? Salvation was already provided before any human was ever created. Only the result of one's choice, their eternal destination is contingent on one's choice. Salvation gave them the choice of eternal life. Rejection gave them the choice of eternal damnation.

Your claim is that there is no choice at all. One is literally saved at conception or damned at conception. God gets to decide.

 

[timtofly]

Let's engage in a little exercise. Abraham lived 2000 years before Jesus Christ came into the world. I have already quoted the scriptures saying Abraham was justified by faith. What did Abraham believe? Well, we are taken back to Genesis15 because this is when the text says Abraham was justified by his believing what God said to him. It is stated clearly in Romans 4. Look.

Abraham met Jesus Christ. Abraham understood the Cross and the resurrection. Abraham told Isaac that God Himself would provide the Lamb. Abraham showed his faith that God would raise Isaac from the dead.

That was not Abraham guessing what he did not know. That was Abraham trusting what God had already told him.

 

[AustinC]

I am aware that a human can reject the Atonement that has fully eradicated his sinful condition.

How is salvation contingent on one's choice? Salvation was already provided before any human was ever created. Only the result of one's choice, their eternal destination is contingent on one's choice. Salvation gave them the choice of eternal life. Rejection gave them the choice of eternal damnation.

Your claim is that there is no choice at all. One is literally saved at conception or damned at conception. God gets to decide.

I bolded and colored in red your assertion that needs a specific passage from God's Word to show your assertion is true.

You wrote:
Salvation gave them the choice of eternal life. Rejection gave them the choice of eternal damnation.

What you seem to be saying is that God broke in to the persons slave compound and pulled them out. Then, outside of the compound where the person was set free from sin, that person had to choose whether to remain free from that enslavement or go back into that enslavement. Thus the person determines their own destiny and God is left helplessly waiting on the person who holds all the power of choice over God.

 

[JD731]

Abraham met Jesus Christ. Abraham understood the Cross and the resurrection. Abraham told Isaac that God Himself would provide the Lamb. Abraham showed his faith that God would raise Isaac from the dead.

That was not Abraham guessing what he did not know. That was Abraham trusting what God had already told him.

Thank you TTF, for your interest in my thread. Let's just say you are right and Abraham understood everything, for the sake of this conversation. How does that relate to what I have said about Abraham and his faith being imputed to him by God the Father for righteousness , if that is the sticking point in my comments that you take issue with?

So, I have questions for you. How is it that Abraham knew about and understood the cross of Jesus Christ and his resurrection when no one else in the OT days understood it? Did you know that the disciples of Jesus Christ, the twelve apostles, and the seventy elders whom Jesus chose to minister with him in the close of the OT times did not have a clue about his death and resurrection. Did those who knew him best go down to the tomb to watch him rise from the dead or to anoint his dead body?

You are pumping your religion here and you are not using reason and logic and faith in the word of God.

All four of the gospel writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John recorded their own apostolic unbelief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Were they justified men during those days? Eleven of them were. God required only that they believe he is the Messiah, the Son of God. All who believed that, after Jesus was introduced to Israel as their Messiah by John the Baptist, were justified. That is what Israel was required to believe. John said it here and you can look at everyone in his gospel who came to Jesus and this is what they said they believed. I might make a list of them later. John said he wrote his gospel and recorded the miracles so they might believe in him. Take a look.

Jn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Everyone who believed this between the beginning of the ministry of Jesus Christ and the cross were justified by believing it and their faith in this was imputed to them for righteousness. A justified man cannot be guilty of sin. This is the reason the disciples, who were first confronted with the resurrected Jesus, was not condemned for not believing it. At that time Jesus gave a commandment for all the world since then that they must believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to be saved. Jesus in a beliers body in the person of the Holy Spirit would be the justification of the believer going forward. Here is the new message for the new covenant.

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This is a very narrow door. You need to think on these things. God is not the nincompoop that you men present him as. There is structure and wisdom in his plan of redemption.

Read these verses and, after reading them, you still insist that OT believers understood the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, then I say it is time to give up on you.

Matt 16:21 (This is at the end of his 3.5 year ministry) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mark 9:30 And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; and he would not that any man should know it.
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Lk 9:44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Lk 18: 31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

JN 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Now, TTF, you can see clearly that all men in all times are justified and counted righteous by God by believing what he says to them, It is called justification by faith, But those believers are saved by Jesus Christ when their sins are washed away by his blood and they receive his Spirit. For the gentile church, the Spirit of Christ is given as the gift of God the moment the sinner believes and he has eternal life.

You need to ponder these things and I pray God will give you light.

 

[AustinC]

Thank you TTF, for your interest in my thread. Let's just say you are right and Abraham understood everything, for the sake of this conversation. How does that relate to what I have said about Abraham and his faith being imputed to him by God the Father for righteousness , if that is the sticking point in my comments that you take issue with?

So, I have questions for you. How is it that Abraham knew about and understood the cross of Jesus Christ and his resurrection when no one else in the OT days understood it? Did you know that the disciples of Jesus Christ, the twelve apostles, and the seventy elders whom Jesus chose to minister with him in the close of the OT times did not have a clue about his death and resurrection. Did those who knew him best go down to the tomb to watch him rise from the dead or to anoint his dead body?

You are pumping your religion here and you are not using reason and logic and faith in the word of God.

All four of the gospel writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John recorded their own apostolic unbelief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Were they justified men during those days? Eleven of them were. God required only that they believe he is the Messiah, the Son of God. All who believed that, after Jesus was introduced to Israel as their Messiah by John the Baptist, were justified. That is what Israel was required to believe. John said it here and you can look at everyone in his gospel who came to Jesus and this is what they said they believed. I might make a list of them later. John said he wrote his gospel and recorded the miracles so they might believe in him. Take a look.

Jn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Everyone who believed this between the beginning of the ministry of Jesus Christ and the cross were justified by believing it and their faith in this was imputed to them for righteousness. A justified man cannot be guilty of sin. This is the reason the disciples, who were first confronted with the resurrected Jesus, was not condemned for not believing it. At that time Jesus gave a commandment for all the world since then that they must believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to be saved. Jesus in a beliers body in the person of the Holy Spirit would be the justification of the believer going forward. Here is the new message for the new covenant.

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This is a very narrow door. You need to think on these things. God is not the nincompoop that you men present him as. There is structure and wisdom in his plan of redemption.

Read these verses and, after reading them, you still insist that OT believers understood the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, then I say it is time to give up on you.

Matt 16:21 (This is at the end of his 3.5 year ministry) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mark 9:30 And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; and he would not that any man should know it.
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Lk 9:44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Lk 18: 31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

JN 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Now, TTF, you can see clearly that all men in all times are justified and counted righteous by God by believing what he says to them, It is called justification by faith, But those believers are saved by Jesus Christ when their sins are washed away by his blood and they receive his Spirit. For the gentile church, the Spirit of Christ is given as the gift of God the moment the sinner believes and he has eternal life.

You need to ponder these things and I pray God will give you light.

The answer to your question is in Hebrews 11.

These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.
~ Hebrews 11:13-19

 

[timtofly]

I bolded and colored in red your assertion that needs a specific passage from God's Word to show your assertion is true.

You wrote:
Salvation gave them the choice of eternal life. Rejection gave them the choice of eternal damnation.

What you seem to be saying is that God broke in to the persons slave compound and pulled them out. Then, outside of the compound where the person was set free from sin, that person had to choose whether to remain free from that enslavement or go back into that enslavement. Thus the person determines their own destiny and God is left helplessly waiting on the person who holds all the power of choice over God.

Sounds like you have overthouht a simple process just to set up an unnecessary point of your own making to prove you are right.

God left all humanity in their sinful condition since Noah. He did not pull Israel put of the muck and mire. He gave them an impossible Law thar kept them bound in the bondage of sin.


God did not force the Holy Spirit onto people giving them a false hope, just to eternally punish them for rejecting the Holy Spirit.

Why is choice such an issue? Creation is full of variety. When it comes to redemption there is only one right choice, but still a free choice, not coerced by any one.

Does God stop being sovereign when He allows sin to control people?

 

[timtofly]

Thank you TTF, for your interest in my thread. Let's just say you are right and Abraham understood everything, for the sake of this conversation. How does that relate to what I have said about Abraham and his faith being imputed to him by God the Father for righteousness , if that is the sticking point in my comments that you take issue with?

So, I have questions for you. How is it that Abraham knew about and understood the cross of Jesus Christ and his resurrection when no one else in the OT days understood it? Did you know that the disciples of Jesus Christ, the twelve apostles, and the seventy elders whom Jesus chose to minister with him in the close of the OT times did not have a clue about his death and resurrection. Did those who knew him best go down to the tomb to watch him rise from the dead or to anoint his dead body?

You are pumping your religion here and you are not using reason and logic and faith in the word of God.

All four of the gospel writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John recorded their own apostolic unbelief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Were they justified men during those days? Eleven of them were. God required only that they believe he is the Messiah, the Son of God. All who believed that, after Jesus was introduced to Israel as their Messiah by John the Baptist, were justified. That is what Israel was required to believe. John said it here and you can look at everyone in his gospel who came to Jesus and this is what they said they believed. I might make a list of them later. John said he wrote his gospel and recorded the miracles so they might believe in him. Take a look.

Jn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Everyone who believed this between the beginning of the ministry of Jesus Christ and the cross were justified by believing it and their faith in this was imputed to them for righteousness. A justified man cannot be guilty of sin. This is the reason the disciples, who were first confronted with the resurrected Jesus, was not condemned for not believing it. At that time Jesus gave a commandment for all the world since then that they must believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to be saved. Jesus in a beliers body in the person of the Holy Spirit would be the justification of the believer going forward. Here is the new message for the new covenant.

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This is a very narrow door. You need to think on these things. God is not the nincompoop that you men present him as. There is structure and wisdom in his plan of redemption.

Read these verses and, after reading them, you still insist that OT believers understood the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, then I say it is time to give up on you.

Matt 16:21 (This is at the end of his 3.5 year ministry) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mark 9:30 And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; and he would not that any man should know it.
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Lk 9:44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Lk 18: 31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

JN 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Now, TTF, you can see clearly that all men in all times are justified and counted righteous by God by believing what he says to them, It is called justification by faith, But those believers are saved by Jesus Christ when their sins are washed away by his blood and they receive his Spirit. For the gentile church, the Spirit of Christ is given as the gift of God the moment the sinner believes and he has eternal life.

You need to ponder these things and I pray God will give you light.

Did your exercise fail? Now you move the stakes to prove your point?

Are you saying Abraham did not meet God? How did Abraham know what he did know? You seem to say God gave Abraham faith. I say God gave Abraham knowledge, then Abraham trusted in God by faith. Explain faith without any knowledge at all to make a decision with?

Abraham did not know the outcome of his decisions. He did have some understanding the outcome of God's decisions. That is why it was accorded as faith, because Abraham obeyed God, because he trusted God.

You brought up the disciples, but what about Adam? The only knowledge he lacked was knowing evil and death. Or do you think Adam was totally ignorant? If you had no knowledge of evil and death, would you be satisfied with the knowledge God gave you? Adam's disobedience was evidence that Adam did not trust God. Adam lacked faith.

Your point would be God never gave Adam faith. My point is God does not give faith. God gives knowledge and a choice to obey God or not. The result of obedience on the knowledge we have is then recorded as faith. The choice is still an act of faith, because we do not know everything. We know enough to make an intelligent decision. What we do not know is what measures our faith.

About the disciples: let's look at Peter in a very controversial passage:

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

You claim they had no knowledge, yet Jesus said God revealed things to Peter. If you think faith is the most important ingredient in this relationship with God, is that why you avoid the fact that God gives us the knowledge we need to make informed decisions? To me that is the point God is giving us said faith. Not the blind faith of lacking understanding.


Understanding and knowledge are not necessarily the same thing. We can know a concept without understanding the whole ramification of that concept. The less we understand the more we rely on faith, no?

If we refuse to obey God, it does not matter how much faith we have. No one will ever know about our faith, only our disobedience.

 

[JD731]

Did your exercise fail? Now you move the stakes to prove your point?

Are you saying Abraham did not meet God? How did Abraham know what he did know? You seem to say God gave Abraham faith. I say God gave Abraham knowledge, then Abraham trusted in God by faith. Explain faith without any knowledge at all to make a decision with?

Abraham did not know the outcome of his decisions. He did have some understanding the outcome of God's decisions. That is why it was accorded as faith, because Abraham obeyed God, because he trusted God.

You brought up the disciples, but what about Adam? The only knowledge he lacked was knowing evil and death. Or do you think Adam was totally ignorant? If you had no knowledge of evil and death, would you be satisfied with the knowledge God gave you? Adam's disobedience was evidence that Adam did not trust God. Adam lacked faith.

Your point would be God never gave Adam faith. My point is God does not give faith. God gives knowledge and a choice to obey God or not. The result of obedience on the knowledge we have is then recorded as faith. The choice is still an act of faith, because we do not know everything. We know enough to make an intelligent decision. What we do not know is what measures our faith.

About the disciples: let's look at Peter in a very controversial passage:

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

You claim they had no knowledge, yet Jesus said God revealed things to Peter. If you think faith is the most important ingredient in this relationship with God, is that why you avoid the fact that God gives us the knowledge we need to make informed decisions? To me that is the point God is giving us said faith. Not the blind faith of lacking understanding.


Understanding and knowledge are not necessarily the same thing. We can know a concept without understanding the whole ramification of that concept. The less we understand the more we rely on faith, no?

If we refuse to obey God, it does not matter how much faith we have. No one will ever know about our faith, only our disobedience.

TTF, I do not know why you entered this conversation, or what it was you thought we were discussing,and I most certainly cannot understand your reasoning, but I do know my head spins trying to figure it out. You obviously have not followed my points and you are probably the only person on the earth that could read what I have written and decide I was trying to say that Abraham and OT saints had no knowledge.

Get this. My point is that Abraham was justified by faith in what God said to him. He believed what God said. If you want to know what Abraham believed God said, just simply go to Romans 4 and it is made plain what he believed. He had plenty of knowledge of God before the events of Ge 15, where he became the "father" of the faith. This was all centered around the son that was promised to him. The fact that Abraham had not believed God about giving him a son by Sarah is painfully evident because Abraham took Hagar, the Egyptian slave girl, and sired a son by her. Look at the language;


Ge 15:After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Now, I want you to look at the next verse and I am going to give you a companion verse from Rom 4. Read them please.

Verse 6, the next verse and the response of Abraham to what the Lord GOD (Adonay Jehivah), the word of the LORD, just said to him.

6 And he (Abraham) believed in the Lord; and he (the Lord) counted it (his believing) to him for righteousness.

The 2nd verse, in Romans 4.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham was 100 tears old here and Sarah was 90 years old. According to the scripture Sarah was past the age of childbearing. This was God's point. This is to be a miraculous son and it is to be from him. This is a picture of God the Father, Sarah, the nation of Israel, and Jesus, his miraculous son that is born of God.

This chapter marks a great pivot point in God's dealing with mankind. There will be much more knowledge of the salvation of God from this point on. This is the beginning of the third millennium of history, and the saviour is revealed in type. We have two things revealed in the first three verses of this chapter that was not revealed in the previous chapters that covered two thousand years. Look them over here;

Number 1 is in verse 1.
The first mention of the word of the LORD in scripture.
Number two is in verse 2
The first mention of the name of the word of the LORD in scripture, which is Lord GOD. This name is Adonay Jehovah.

This is where Abraham understands that the nation that was promised to him in the covenant God is making with him is to come through this miracle son of his and Sarah. and not through his and Hagar's son after the works of the flesh. He believes the word of the LORD, whom he sees in a vision, meaning he was present with him, and is a person, and has a name, Lord GOD. He is the pre-incarnate Jesus, and Isaac, the son of Abraham, will be a type of him. There is a typical truth established here. The first son of Abraham, Ishmael will not be his heir, though he is the first son of Abraham, but the son of God, typified by the second born son of Sarah, will be the heir. The fleshly among the sons of Abraham will not be the sons of God, but those who believe in Christ and are born again.

What the word of the LORD did not say to Abraham. He did not say anything about the name of Jesus Christ, the name through whom Abraham's nation, who came through his son Isaac and his grandson Jacob, would eventually be born again. He did not say anything about the cross of Jesus Christ. That would have certainly been foreign to anything Abraham was familiar with. He simply believed what we are told in scripture, in Ge 15 and in Rom 4. God said he imputed his believing those things for righteousness. He said in Romans 4 that faith, in God's eyes, is righteousness. Therefore God counted his believing as righteousness and justified him. However, that did not clear him from his sins. Only the blood of the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ can do that.

The way we know that Abraham believed God and obeyed him by faith is because Sarah became pregnant at 90 years old.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Abraham was justified by his faith in what God said while he knew nothing about the cross of Jesus Christ.

This is the bottom line.

There is no salvation from sin without the shed blood of Jesus Christ because the scriptures say that without the shedding of blood is no remission of sins. It is Jesus Christ who lived a perfect sinless life and it is he who died for the sins of the whole world, and rose again. But it is God who justifies sinners and the basis of their justification is for them to believe what he says to them. Salvation means to be renewed by the indwelling and eternal presence of the Spirit of Jesus Christ in our bodies. When this happens, the believer is made into the likeness of Christ, a trinity, body, soul, and Spirit, who is the image of God, a trinity, God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. In this way we are in God and God in us, as he intended before the fall. We now have the hope of a glorified body and when we get it all traces of Adam will be erased and we will live forever in the presence of God. Our souls are from God. Our glorified bodies are from God, and the Spirit of Christ who indwells the new bodies is the gift of God. We are now equipped to live in heaven with God, just like Adam did in the Garden.

Here is the process in print:

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

I pray God is pleased with this post and you,TTF, get some light by it.

 

[JD731]

AustinC and Kyredneck are the only two making sense on this thread.

Thank you,HumbleJoe, I am humbled by your comments.

 

[AustinC]

Sounds like you have overthouht a simple process just to set up an unnecessary point of your own making to prove you are right.

Not at all.
You wrote:
Salvation gave them the choice of eternal life. Rejection gave them the choice of eternal damnation.
You have zero scripture to support your assertion.

God left all humanity in their sinful condition since Noah.

Not true. God established Covenants with Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. Each covenant established a means of redemption for fallen man by faith in the Promised One. You would know this if you read and understood the book of Hebrews

He did not pull Israel put of the muck and mire. He gave them an impossible Law thar kept them bound in the bondage of sin.

The Mosaic Covenant pointed Israel toward the need for a Redeemer who would justify them by faith. The law condemned, yet pointed Israel to the Promised One. If you understood the story of being taken out of bondage to Egypt and placed into covenant with God at Sinai, you would grasp the book of Hebrews.

God did not force the Holy Spirit onto people giving them a false hope, just to eternally punish them for rejecting the Holy Spirit.

God only gives the Holy Spirit to his chosen people.

Why is choice such an issue?

It determines who is Sovereign.

[/QUOTE] Creation is full of variety. When it comes to redemption there is only one right choice, but still a free choice, not coerced by any one.[/QUOTE]
Not supported in the Bible, but asserted by you.

Does God stop being sovereign when He allows sin to control people?

No
God is always Sovereign

 

[timtofly]

Not at all.
You wrote:
Salvation gave them the choice of eternal life. Rejection gave them the choice of eternal damnation.
You have zero scripture to support your assertion.


Not true. God established Covenants with Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. Each covenant established a means of redemption for fallen man by faith in the Promised One. You would know this if you read and understood the book of Hebrews


The Mosaic Covenant pointed Israel toward the need for a Redeemer who would justify them by faith. The law condemned, yet pointed Israel to the Promised One. If you understood the story of being taken out of bondage to Egypt and placed into covenant with God at Sinai, you would grasp the book of Hebrews.


God only gives the Holy Spirit to his chosen people.


It determines who is Sovereign.

Not supported in the Bible, but asserted by you.


No
God is always Sovereign

So the only issue is Calvanism is human assertion, unless one is taught to be a Calvinist?

If your birthday present was on the table and you chose not to open it, does it ever stop being your birthday present?

If you chose to open it, was it less yours after you opened it than it was prior to opening it. Did your choice bring the present into existence?

Now let's say there was a table with a present on it for every single human. Does your choice make a difference about every other present and every one else's choice?

Why do you place so much derogatory emphasis on one's ability to choose?

 

[JD731]

The answer to your question is in Hebrews 11.

These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.
~ Hebrews 11:13-19

One thing that I despise about Calvinism is that it causes it's proponents to be filled with pride and arrogance. There is not a single passage in the bible that you fellows will not take out of context and apply to yourselves if it advances your cause. It never matters to you folks what the scriptures actually say, or to whom they are said, if you can use them to project your own elect status that exist only in your minds. You put yourselves into passages where you do not belong, like Hebrews 11 & 12 and then dance around throwing up your arms and waving and yelling, "look at me, I am elect because of this sentence in the scriptures." These things ought not to be.

If one goes back to the beginning of this epistle, you will find the addressee is "the Hebrews." So, if you see personal pronouns in the letter the first thing you should consider is that the antecedent are the Hebrews. Here is an example.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Indulge me here for a minute; If the fathers are Hebrews, and are also the fathers of those who are being written to, then the pronoun "us" in verse 2 is referencing the Hebrews who were alive when Jesus spoke to them and those whom are being addressed.

What did Jesus say to them? Well, he said things that are relative to the history and worship with whom he has had a long relationship, like he has had with no other people or nation in the world. The author of the letter warned these Hebrews of the first century AD that they had better take heed the things he said. Look;

He 2:Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Don't miss this. "At the first," is key. Your verse says that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. It was Jesus who first began speaking of this great salvation. This is the salvation that required that he be the sacrifices that are prefigured in Hebrew literature, the scriptures. They were only figures of the actual sacrifice. None of the long line of OT personages in He 11, all of whom were in the linage of Jesus Christ, and was the highway of the seed of the woman, knew of this great salvation or the saying that Jesus was first to speak of it would not be true.

So, Jesus Christ is the author of the epistle to the Hebrews and he is doing the speaking in these last days. What he says is better than anything that was said by any of these men previously spoken in the OT times. He specifically mentions Abel, who was responsible for establishing the pre-flood sacrificial system and called men to worship God through the blood of an innocent lamb, not knowing of the true Lamb of God, Jesus Christ. Look;

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

This, I believe just meant that the sacrificial offerings that Abel instituted to worship God continued after his death because it was by his gift that he spoke, the offering a figure that believers were able to see as those who look through a dark glass.


24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth (speaking of Abel), much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Whatever is said in the epistle to the Hebrews has a historical and specific context to this people group and might apply to you in a secondary or figurative or a spiritual sense. If there is an application to gentiles then it will also appear in letters written to gentiles, of which there are 13, but for you to latch onto the promises as if you are the end to which Jesus spake and to use the verses to claim your superiority over the rest of creation is just wrong.

None of the people mentioned in chapter 11 received the promises but they all had faith and saw the promises afar off. When Jesus came and became the sacrifice, then the promise was realized in him and he authored the faith that Hebrews were to embrace going forward. He is the beginning and the ending, he says.

 

[AustinC]

One thing that I despise about Calvinism is that it causes it's proponents to be filled with pride and arrogance. There is not a single passage in the bible that you fellows will not take out of context and apply to yourselves if it advances your cause. It never matters to you folks what the scriptures actually say, or to whom they are said, if you can use them to project your own elect status that exist only in your minds. You put yourselves into passages where you do not belong, like Hebrews 11 & 12 and then dance around throwing up your arms and waving and yelling, "look at me, I am elect because of this sentence in the scriptures." These things ought not to be.

If one goes back to the beginning of this epistle, you will find the addressee is "the Hebrews." So, if you see personal pronouns in the letter the first thing you should consider is that the antecedent are the Hebrews. Here is an example.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Indulge me here for a minute; If the fathers are Hebrews, and are also the fathers of those who are being written to, then the pronoun "us" in verse 2 is referencing the Hebrews who were alive when Jesus spoke to them and those whom are being addressed.

What did Jesus say to them? Well, he said things that are relative to the history and worship with whom he has had a long relationship, like he has had with no other people or nation in the world. The author of the letter warned these Hebrews of the first century AD that they had better take heed the things he said. Look;

He 2:Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Don't miss this. "At the first," is key. Your verse says that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. It was Jesus who first began speaking of this great salvation. This is the salvation that required that he be the sacrifices that are prefigured in Hebrew literature, the scriptures. They were only figures of the actual sacrifice. None of the long line of OT personages in He 11, all of whom were in the linage of Jesus Christ, and was the highway of the seed of the woman, knew of this great salvation or the saying that Jesus was first to speak of it would not be true.

So, Jesus Christ is the author of the epistle to the Hebrews and he is doing the speaking in these last days. What he says is better than anything that was said by any of these men previously spoken in the OT times. He specifically mentions Abel, who was responsible for establishing the pre-flood sacrificial system and called men to worship God through the blood of an innocent lamb, not knowing of the true Lamb of God, Jesus Christ. Look;

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

This, I believe just meant that the sacrificial offerings that Abel instituted to worship God continued after his death because it was by his gift that he spoke, the offering a figure that believers were able to see as those who look through a dark glass.


24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth (speaking of Abel), much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Whatever is said in the epistle to the Hebrews has a historical and specific context to this people group and might apply to you in a secondary or figurative or a spiritual sense. If there is an application to gentiles then it will also appear in letters written to gentiles, of which there are 13, but for you to latch onto the promises as if you are the end to which Jesus spake and to use the verses to claim your superiority over the rest of creation is just wrong.

None of the people mentioned in chapter 11 received the promises but they all had faith and saw the promises afar off. When Jesus came and became the sacrifice, then the promise was realized in him and he authored the faith that Hebrews were to embrace going forward. He is the beginning and the ending, he says.

My, my, my, you struggle with Bible interpretation.
Hebrews is likely a sermon, given either by Paul or Peter. The sermon starts with the speaker telling us that God gave the prophets their words to speak. (see the end of 2 Peter 1 for a cross reference) The word "us" is for all of us who are saved. In particular it was an audience of Jewish Christians, likely in Jerusalem. Luke may be the person recording the sermon for...us.
Regarding the theme of the sermon.
First and foremost the sermon is about Jesus being greater.
Jesus is greater than the angels. Jesus is greater than the prophet Moses (Moses was a foreshadowing of Christ). Jesus is greater than Melchizedek (Mel is a foreshadowing of Jesus as the Great High Priest). Jesus is greater than the Mosaic Covenant (Jesus is the established of the New Covenant when he died). Jesus is greater than any faith (Jesus is the author and finisher of faith).

What the preacher said to his audience, fully applies to you and me and every believer. This is why it is in the Canon of scripture. It is God's Word to us.

The persons mentioned in Hebrews 11 all had faith in the Promised One. It was their faith that justified them, not the sacrifices. This is precisely why the speaker of the sermon brings them up. He is letting his audience know that justification before God is by faith alone. It has always been by faith alone from Adam to the present day.

You imagine that my disagreement with you means I am arrogant and prideful. My disagreement with you is based upon your poor interpretation of the Bible. If I were the only one disagreeing with you, you could make a better argument, but others have responded and told you that you err in your interpretation.

 

[The Archangel]

One thing that I despise about Calvinism is that it causes it's proponents to be filled with pride and arrogance. There is not a single passage in the bible that you fellows will not take out of context and apply to yourselves if it advances your cause. It never matters to you folks what the scriptures actually say, or to whom they are said, if you can use them to project your own elect status that exist only in your minds. You put yourselves into passages where you do not belong, like Hebrews 11 & 12 and then dance around throwing up your arms and waving and yelling, "look at me, I am elect because of this sentence in the scriptures." These things ought not to be.

If one goes back to the beginning of this epistle, you will find the addressee is "the Hebrews." So, if you see personal pronouns in the letter the first thing you should consider is that the antecedent are the Hebrews. Here is an example.

...

Indulge me here for a minute; If the fathers are Hebrews, and are also the fathers of those who are being written to, then the pronoun "us" in verse 2 is referencing the Hebrews who were alive when Jesus spoke to them and those whom are being addressed.

This is nothing more than a gross generalization--and a super-gross one at that!. Certainly there are arrogant Calvinists, but there are arrogant Arminians, too. I could tell of many (though not all) who are patting themselves on their backs for their "choice" of Jesus while looking down their noses at those who are non-believers.

But, the bigger issue is restricting Hebrews to Jews alone. First off, Paul in Galatians says this:

[7] Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. [8] And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” [9] So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (Galatians 3:7–9 ESV)​

As Paul argues, the "us" in Hebrews can and does apply to us who believe in Christ, but are not ethnically Jewish.

Secondly, if you made the same statement about every "us"-type statement in scripture, there would be no salvation for Gentiles. Of course, we know that Jesus came to save Gentiles as well (the aforementioned Galatians passage makes that quite clear). But then what do you do with statement in Matthew 1:21--"He will save His people from their sins." If we followed your "logic" in this explanation of Hebrews then none of Matthew would apply to Gentiles. If that's the case we could deny the Sermon on the Mount, the Great Commission, etc. because Matthew was written to Jews and because Jesus specifically came to save "His people." So, your "logic" of interpretations simply does not work.

The Archangel

 

[JD731]

My, my, my, you struggle with Bible interpretation.
Hebrews is likely a sermon, given either by Paul or Peter. The sermon starts with the speaker telling us that God gave the prophets their words to speak. (see the end of 2 Peter 1 for a cross reference) The word "us" is for all of us who are saved. In particular it was an audience of Jewish Christians, likely in Jerusalem. Luke may be the person recording the sermon for...us.
Regarding the theme of the sermon.
First and foremost the sermon is about Jesus being greater.
Jesus is greater than the angels. Jesus is greater than the prophet Moses (Moses was a foreshadowing of Christ). Jesus is greater than Melchizedek (Mel is a foreshadowing of Jesus as the Great High Priest). Jesus is greater than the Mosaic Covenant (Jesus is the established of the New Covenant when he died). Jesus is greater than any faith (Jesus is the author and finisher of faith).

What the preacher said to his audience, fully applies to you and me and every believer. This is why it is in the Canon of scripture. It is God's Word to us.

The persons mentioned in Hebrews 11 all had faith in the Promised One. It was their faith that justified them, not the sacrifices. This is precisely why the speaker of the sermon brings them up. He is letting his audience know that justification before God is by faith alone. It has always been by faith alone from Adam to the present day.

You imagine that my disagreement with you means I am arrogant and prideful. My disagreement with you is based upon your poor interpretation of the Bible. If I were the only one disagreeing with you, you could make a better argument, but others have responded and told you that you err in your interpretation.

I struggle with bible interpretation that forces me to reconcile Calvinism, which is a totally corrupt system, to the biblical context of scripture.

Hebrews is not a sermon, it is a letter, an epistle. This is written to the Hebrews near the end of a forty year probation period, from the cross to the time for this nation and people to enter into rest. There are warnings in this epistle not to turn back to the weak and beggarly elements of the law. There is a penalty for doing so. There will be no other sacrifice for sin and it will be impossible to bring them again to repentance.

Here is the prophecy of Jesus Christ himself.

Lk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

The vineyard is described in Isa 5. You should read it. But there is a fig tree planted in the vineyard. The fig tree is a metaphor for national Israel. The certain man is the Lord Jesus Christ and the 3 years is the time of his earthly ministry. The vine dresser is the Holy Spirit. The number 40 is used in the scriptures for a time of probation. We know the nation was cast out of the land in 70 AD. That is 40 years from the cross to the dispersion. The reason was not because God did not want it to bear fruit but because it did not bear fruit.

Take a look at what the vineyard looked like near the end of the 40 years probation.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The above is what the apostles did first to this nation.

3 And this will we do, if God permit. (going on unto perfection)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world <165> to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

This fig tree was cut down in 70 AD by the Romans and cast out of the vineyard and reckoned dead and the church of Jesus Christ took on a gentile character from that time. This can be easily seen in the NT epistles if ones have eyes to see. Calvinists will never see it because they are blind and have spiritualized the entire OT scriptures where the promises to this nation were made and the preparation for their eternal kingdom was established.

Here is Jesus in a prophecy of these days after the cross which he spake as he journeyed to Jerusalem where he would be crucified in a week.

Lk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
(supper time is at the end of the day)
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

Jesus Christ prepared the supper'
He sent his servant out at supper time to those who were bidden, which was his people Israel - Judah and Judaea.
They would not come and made silly excuses
Our Lord was angry with them for not coming to his supper
He sent his servant to bid the lower class in their place - Samaria
There was still room so he went out and into the hedges and highways and bid them for the express reason that his house may be filled - The world of gentiles.

Here is a companion verse concerning what the role of the gentile is in this age.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Still speaking to the gentiles.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Still speaking to the gentiles;

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The gentiles were brought in to fill up the house (family) of Jesus Christ via the new birth. But he wants you to know that there is a future resurrection and salvation for Israel but it is after his house is filled.
Supper time
The fulness of the time
The end of the law
The last days

When Hebrews was written the 40 years was near over and those bidden would not come. They were all destroyed by the Roman army who burned their city and destroyed those wicked unbelievers in intense judgement ordered by God.

The prophecy of this age is in the parables of Jesus in the gospels and they agree with the history of these times.

The epistle to the Hebrews is not about you.

 

[JD731]

This is nothing more than a gross generalization--and a super-gross one at that!. Certainly there are arrogant Calvinists, but there are arrogant Arminians, too. I could tell of many (though not all) who are patting themselves on their backs for their "choice" of Jesus while looking down their noses at those who are non-believers.

But, the bigger issue is restricting Hebrews to Jews alone. First off, Paul in Galatians says this:

[7] Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. [8] And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” [9] So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (Galatians 3:7–9 ESV)​

As Paul argues, the "us" in Hebrews can and does apply to us who believe in Christ, but are not ethnically Jewish.

Secondly, if you made the same statement about every "us"-type statement in scripture, there would be no salvation for Gentiles. Of course, we know that Jesus came to save Gentiles as well (the aforementioned Galatians passage makes that quite clear). But then what do you do with statement in Matthew 1:21--"He will save His people from their sins." If we followed your "logic" in this explanation of Hebrews then none of Matthew would apply to Gentiles. If that's the case we could deny the Sermon on the Mount, the Great Commission, etc. because Matthew was written to Jews and because Jesus specifically came to save "His people." So, your "logic" of interpretations simply does not work.

The Archangel

Everything you say is wrong, Aa.

The gospel that was preached by God to Abraham is indeed preached to gentiles. The gospel is described in your Galatians verse as "in Abraham shall all the nations be blessed. It is called, "the gospel of God." It is the theme of this entire age. It included the gospel of Jesus Christ and the first thing one finds said to the gentiles as he reads his bible through is this gospel of God. It is in the very first sentence. Read it here;

Rom 1: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The gospel of God is defined in this same epistle without ambiguity. It is here.

Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

God does not give men faith to believe the gospel, he commands it.

You Calvinists greatly err.

 

[The Archangel]

Everything you say is wrong, Aa.

The gospel that was preached by God to Abraham is indeed preached to gentiles. The gospel is described in your Galatians verse as "in Abraham shall all the nations be blessed. It is called, "the gospel of God." It is the theme of this entire age. It included the gospel of Jesus Christ and the first thing one finds said to the gentiles as he reads his bible through is this gospel of God. It is in the very first sentence. Read it here;

Rom 1: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The gospel of God is defined in this same epistle without ambiguity. It is here.

Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

God does not give men faith to believe the gospel, he commands it.

You Calvinists greatly err.

Hardly... Your ignoring of the Galatians passage (and attempting to explain it away by proof-texting from other places) is noticed.

Your plentiful errors are not because you are an Arminian. Instead, you really need a good lesson in biblical hermeneutics. You exhibit no facility in hermeneutics whatsoever.

The Archangel

 

[JD731]

Hardly... Your ignoring of the Galatians passage (and attempting to explain it away by proof-texting from other places) is noticed.

Your plentiful errors are not because you are an Arminian. Instead, you really need a good lesson in biblical hermeneutics. You exhibit no facility in hermeneutics whatsoever.

The Archangel

I believe every word of scripture, something you make no claim to. you quoted this;

[7] Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. [8] And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” [9] So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (Galatians 3:7–9 ESV)

After you said this;

But, the bigger issue is restricting Hebrews to Jews alone. First off, Paul in Galatians says this:

[7] Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. [8] And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” [9] So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (Galatians 3:7–9 ESV)

As Paul argues, the "us" in Hebrews can and does apply to us who believe in Christ, but are not ethnically Jewish.

Apparently you think that Paul is making an argument that gentiles becomes Hebrews here in this passage because those of faith are sons of Abraham.

But read the whole context because he explains what he means in the context.


5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

It only means that as Abraham was first to believe God concerning his son, that we gentiles will be blessed in the same way. It does not mean that gentiles become Hebrews. You do know that the words following a statement that says "so then" means this is the explanation of his statement.

The point is we become children of God by faith. This is the gospel of God.
.