Acts 2:47 – The Bible vs Human Theology

[The Archangel]

But as we see in
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The order of salvation is shown, confess, because you believe, then God saves.

The problem you're having is that Paul is not outlining an order. Verse 9, specifically, is a third-class conditional sentence. He's talking, for lack of a better term, hypothetically. Now, salvation is not presented as hypothetical. The hypothetical "if" is confess and believe, both of which are subjunctive and are "hypothetical."

But, Paul is not speaking of confession and believing in the way that you think--as a required order. Again, referencing the previous discussion:

Also... "God added" is an "imperfect," which means it is discussing past time. Is it past from the author's writing? Probably. Luke is reporting what happened, and that's probably all. However, even if you press the grammar of this clause too far, you can't get "one has to believe before God adds them." You really can't have God's adding happening in the past with the being saved being a present participle and claim belief (being saved) happens before God's adding. In other words, you really can't have a present action (being saved) causing what happened in the past (God adding).​

And Paul's argument here does not negate Luke's writing.

The Archangel

 

[Silverhair]

The problem you're having is that Paul is not outlining an order. Verse 9, specifically, is a third-class conditional sentence. He's talking, for lack of a better term, hypothetically. Now, salvation is not presented as hypothetical. The hypothetical "if" is confess and believe, both of which are subjunctive and are "hypothetical."

But, Paul is not speaking of confession and believing in the way that you think--as a required order. Again, referencing the previous discussion:

Also... "God added" is an "imperfect," which means it is discussing past time. Is it past from the author's writing? Probably. Luke is reporting what happened, and that's probably all. However, even if you press the grammar of this clause too far, you can't get "one has to believe before God adds them." You really can't have God's adding happening in the past with the being saved being a present participle and claim belief (being saved) happens before God's adding. In other words, you really can't have a present action (being saved) causing what happened in the past (God adding).​

And Paul's argument here does not negate Luke's writing.

The Archangel

Yes it is a conditional sentence and it proves my point, salvation is conditional. You have to work very hard to miss what the text shows. God has placed a condition on salvation and that is faith in His son. Why do you keep fighting against the bible?

 

[The Archangel]

Yes it is a conditional sentence and it proves my point, salvation is conditional. You have to work very hard to miss what the text shows. God has placed a condition on salvation and that is faith in His son. Why do you keep fighting against the bible?

A conditional sentence is not used in the way you assume it is above.

I am in no way fighting against the Bible. You perceive me to be doing so because your understanding of it is different than mine. I firmly support what the Bible says about salvation. Romans 10 clearly says you must believe. I firmly believe that one must believe in order to be saved. Where we differ, is that I think belief is the result of God's saving work, not the cause of it.

The Archangel

 

[Silverhair]

A conditional sentence is not used in the way you assume it is above.

I am in no way fighting against the Bible. You perceive me to be doing so because your understanding of it is different than mine. I firmly support what the Bible says about salvation. Romans 10 clearly says you must believe. I firmly believe that one must believe in order to be saved. Where we differ, is that I think belief is the result of God's saving work, not the cause of it.

The Archangel

Then you have people saved prior to them believing in the Son. We are told tat we are saved because we believe but you do not accept this, why I do not know but it is where you stand.

Even the comment you have made contains contradiction.
1} I firmly believe that one must believe in order to be saved
2} I think belief is the result of God's saving work, not the cause of it..

Those are two opposing views.
1} belief before salvation
2} belief after salvation

You can not have it both ways so you need to decide which is true, which is biblical.

 

[AustinC]

How do we know we are saved?

Answer: Because we believe.

Why do we believe?

Answer: Because God has quickened us, made us alive, with Christ.
This is what the Bible tells us. We don't make it up.

Difference between free-willers and Reformed?

Answer: Free-willers emphasize themselves as the cause agent that moves God. Reformed emphasize God as the cause agent that moves man.

 

[Silverhair]

How do we know we are saved?

Answer: Because we believe.

Why do we believe?

Answer: Because God has quickened us, made us alive, with Christ.
This is what the Bible tells us. We don't make it up.

Difference between free-willers and Reformed?

Answer: Free-willers emphasize themselves as the cause agent that moves God. Reformed emphasize God as the cause agent that moves man.

Your view, as usual, is way off the mark.

Difference between the reformed and one that trusts the bible.

Bible believers trust what the bible says without having to read into the text what is not there..
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name

Those that hear the gospel and believe the message and trust in the Son are saved by the grace of God.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

I know that is not what you want to see but God does not save those that do not believe and then give them faith as you would have it. Your theology is wrong Austin and this has been pointed out to you many times but you cling to your calvinism and deny the bible.

 

[AustinC]

Your view, as usual, is way off the mark.

Difference between the reformed and one that trusts the bible.

Bible believers trust what the bible says without having to read into the text what is not there..
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name

Those that hear the gospel and believe the message and trust in the Son are saved by the grace of God.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

I know that is not what you want to see but God does not save those that do not believe and then give them faith as you would have it. Your theology is wrong Austin and this has been pointed out to you many times but you cling to your calvinism and deny the bible.

I note that you only quote a sentence and sometimes less than a sentence as your proof of what the Bible says. Clearly you despise context and real hermeneutics. This is the modus operandi of man-centered philosophers who lift up man and place God beneath them in their salvation.
I also notice you never actually responded to my post.

 

[Silverhair]

I note that you only quote a sentence and sometimes less than a sentence as your proof of what the Bible says. Clearly you despise context and real hermeneutics. This is the modus operandi of man-centered philosophers who lift up man and place God beneath them in their salvation.
I also notice you never actually responded to my post.

Do I really have to post the whole context for you to understand what the text says? Austin that is just you trying to avoid what the scriptures say. Show where what I posted is not supported by the context. You keep making that claim but never show where what I said was not supported by the context. I do not post twenty verses and then bold a few select words like you do. I actually give people credit for the ability to look up the text in their bible if they question what I have posted.

I do not put man over God in my salvation, only God can save and He has chosen to save those the believe in the Son. That is biblical but you keep denying that.

I answered your post you just do not like the answer. I do note that you still resort to the
Ad Hominem attacks rather that deal with the scripture.

 

[AustinC]

Do I really have to post the whole context for you to understand what the text says? Austin that is just you trying to avoid what the scriptures say. Show where what I posted is not supported by the context. You keep making that claim but never show where what I said was not supported by the context. I do not post twenty verses and then bold a few select words like you do. I actually give people credit for the ability to look up the text in their bible if they question what I have posted.

I do not put man over God in my salvation, only God can save and He has chosen to save those the believe in the Son. That is biblical but you keep denying that.

I answered your post you just do not like the answer. I do note that you still resort to the
Ad Hominem attacks rather that deal with the scripture.

Since you interpret so poorly, I need you to quote and interpret the passage so we know exactly how you get your man-centered salvation theory from the passage.

 

[Silverhair]

Since you interpret so poorly, I need you to quote and interpret the passage so we know exactly how you get your man-centered salvation theory from the passage.

You must not be understanding what I said. I quote the bible I do not interpret it. If you think that what I posted is wrong and does not conform to the context then prove it. Read the passage and tell me what you think it says.

 

[AustinC]

You must not be understanding what I said. I quote the bible I do not interpret it. If you think that what I posted is wrong and does not conform to the context then prove it. Read the passage and tell me what you think it says.

We all quote the Bible.
Your failure to interpret is you being lazy and thus having no voice in any conversation.

 

[Silverhair]

We all quote the Bible.
Your failure to interpret is you being lazy and thus having no voice in any conversation.

Are you unable to read clear bible text. If I post
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
And then write that the person hears and believes and God saves does that mean anything different. You are just being stubborn because you do not want to accept what the bible says. The fact you continue to not respond to the scripture just shows that you have no valid argument.

 

[AustinC]

Are you unable to read clear bible text. If I post
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
And then write that the person hears and believes and God saves does that mean anything different. You are just being stubborn because you do not want to accept what the bible says. The fact you continue to not respond to the scripture just shows that you have no valid argument.

Please interpret this passage for us.

Ephesians 1:3-14

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

We await your interpretation of the passage.

 

[Silverhair]

Please interpret this passage for us.

Ephesians 1:3-14

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

We await your interpretation of the passage.

Paul is pointing out the the spiritual blessings that one has when they are in Christ Jesus. This was and is the plan and purpose that God the Father established before creation.

We can see that verses 3-12 are written from the point of view of the chosen nation, the Jews. They were chosen before the foundation of the world to receive the blessings if they trusted in God. Paul makes this clear in verse 12 when he says the Jews were the first to trust in Christ Jesus. We see the change from the Jews to the Greeks in verse 13-14. Here we see that all the blessings that were available to the Jews are now available to the Greeks through faith in Christ Jesus.

God tells us in Gen 3:15 that He already had a plan in place to redeem mankind. That plan was carried out through the Jews, His chosen nation. Those that trusted in God {OT} and in Christ {NT} would be redeemed and would enjoy the spiritual blessings. Those that reject Him would be condemned.

 

[AustinC]

Paul is pointing out the the spiritual blessings that one has when they are in Christ Jesus. This was and is the plan and purpose that God the Father established before creation.

We can see that verses 3-12 are written from the point of view of the chosen nation, the Jews. They were chosen before the foundation of the world to receive the blessings if they trusted in God. Paul makes this clear in verse 12 when he says the Jews were the first to trust in Christ Jesus. We see the change from the Jews to the Greeks in verse 13-14. Here we see that all the blessings that were available to the Jews are now available to the Greeks through faith in Christ Jesus.

God tells us in Gen 3:15 that He already had a plan in place to redeem mankind. That plan was carried out through the Jews, His chosen nation. Those that trusted in God {OT} and in Christ {NT} would be redeemed and would enjoy the spiritual blessings. Those that reject Him would be condemned.

Where, in the letter to the Ephesians (who are mostly Gentiles) do we see Paul differentiating and separating Jew from Gentile in his comments?

Please show from Ephesians 1:3-14 where you get the idea that this is only the chosen nation of Israel.

Please interpret this passage for us.

Ephesians 1:3-14

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

We await your interpretation of the passage.

 

[Silverhair]

Where, in the letter to the Ephesians (who are mostly Gentiles) do we see Paul differentiating and separating Jew from Gentile in his comments?

Please show from Ephesians 1:3-14 where you get the idea that this is only the chosen nation of Israel.

Did you not read what I wrote? Do you just react without thinking?

We can see that verses 3-12 are written from the point of view of the chosen nation, the Jews. Paul uses "us, we" JEWS throughout those verses. The promises were made to the Jews or do you not read the OT. Paul changes to "you" GENTILES in verse 13 and then to "our" JEWS & GENTILES in verse 14.

You need to read all of the post before you jump. This is what you seem to have missed "Here we see that all the blessings that were available to the Jews are now available to the Greeks through faith in Christ Jesus."

 

[AustinC]

Did you not read what I wrote? Do you just react without thinking?

We can see that verses 3-12 are written from the point of view of the chosen nation, the Jews. Paul uses "us, we" JEWS throughout those verses. The promises were made to the Jews or do you not read the OT. Paul changes to "you" GENTILES in verse 13 and then to "our" JEWS & GENTILES in verse 14.

You need to read all of the post before you jump. This is what you seem to have missed "Here we see that all the blessings that were available to the Jews are now available to the Greeks through faith in Christ Jesus."

I am waiting for your interpretation. I read what you wrote and I asked for you to show your assertion in the text. After all, you have told us you only read what the text says. I want to see how the text tells us that it is only for the nation of Israel. In verses 3-14 do you read the word "Jew"? It seems you are adding to the text what is not there.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Paul tells us who he is writing to and he never says "Jew."

Ephesians 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Are you sure the text says what you have told us it says?

 

[Silverhair]

I am waiting for your interpretation. I read what you wrote and I asked for you to show your assertion in the text. After all, you have told us you only read what the text says. I want to see how the text tells us that it is only for the nation of Israel. In verses 3-14 do you read the word "Jew"? It seems you are adding to the text what is not there.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Paul tells us who he is writing to and he never says "Jew."

Ephesians 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Are you sure the text says what you have told us it says?

Open your eyes and read what I wrote. If you can not understand it that is you problem not mine. For someone that acts as if they understand the bible better than anyone else you do seem to have a problem reading the text of said work.

Get rid of your preconceived ideas of what the bible should say and just read the text. Your own words betray you Austin. You could not have read what I wrote or you would not ask such silly questions as they were already answered in the post I made. You just do not like what I wrote.

 

[AustinC]

Open your eyes and read what I wrote. If you can not understand it that is you problem not mine. For someone that acts as if they understand the bible better than anyone else you do seem to have a problem reading the text of said work.

Get rid of your preconceived ideas of what the bible should say and just read the text. Your own words betray you Austin. You could not have read what I wrote or you would not ask such silly questions as they were already answered in the post I made. You just do not like what I wrote.

I have read it. Where do you find what you wrote in Ephesians 1:3-14. I read the passage and it doesn't say anything about what you say. Nothing about Jews anywhere in the passage. Quote the passage and show me the word Jew.
Seems like you aren't just letting the text speak for itself.
Huh.
I thought you said that we Reformed didn't just take the text for what it says, yet here you are adding the word "Jew" when it isn't there.
Interesting to see you interpret a passage.

 

[Silverhair]

I have read it. Where do you find what you wrote in Ephesians 1:3-14. I read the passage and it doesn't say anything about what you say. Nothing about Jews anywhere in the passage. Quote the passage and show me the word Jew.
Seems like you aren't just letting the text speak for itself.
Huh.
I thought you said that we Reformed didn't just take the text for what it says, yet here you are adding the word "Jew" when it isn't there.
Interesting to see you interpret a passage.

I am not adding the word JEW. Read the text.

We can see that verses 3-12 are written from the point of view of the chosen nation, the Jews. Paul uses "us, we" throughout those verses. The promises were made to the Jews or do you not read the OT. Paul changes to "you" in verse 13 and then to "our" in verse 14. I removed those words that seem to be so confusing for you. Here is the key "us, we" the Jews, "you" the Greeks & "our" both Jews and Greeks. Hope that helps.

"Here we see that all the blessings that were available to the Jews are now available to the Greeks through faith in Christ Jesus."

Take the time to read the verses without the glasses. Paul is quite clear if you will just read the text. I know it is hard for you to accept anything other than Calvinism but that is the way it is my friend.

Do what I did, just color code the words relating to God the Father, Christ, Holy Spirit, us/we, you, our. for verse 3-14. What does verse 12 tell us "that we who first trusted in Christ". Were the Ephesians the first to trust in Christ Jesus, NO. Paul wrote the letter in approx. 60 A D to a church he established in approx. 50 A D. The first to trust in Christ Jesus were the JEWS which is who the blessings of God came through. These blessings were now available to the Greeks through faith in Christ Jesus.