Only Those Whom the Father Draws to Christ

[Silverhair]

The word "impel" means to force.

People give up all kinds of things, but when it comes to the idea of their "free will" they will cling to it, regardless of the spiritual consequences for them. It reminds me of what John Milton has Satan say in Paradise Lost: "Better to reign in hell than serve in heav'n".

Actually, depending upon the context Impel means Drive, force, or urge (someone) to do something. Context matters.

 

[Silverhair]

Its hilarious that you cant understand that raising someone from the dead isnt a miracle of God. Let me ask you, When Jesus spoke to the dead Lazarus, when Lazarus heard His voice, was it a Miracle of God or No ?

Yes, raising Lazarus from the dead was a miracle. Someone trusting in the gospel message is not a miracle and being saved is not. God saves those that freely trust in His son. Being dead physically, as Lazarus was, is quite different from being dead spiritually, separated from God.

Lazarus could not raise himself from the dead but man, even a spiritually dead one, can hear and trust the gospel message and trust in Christ Jesus and be saved. Just because many will not trust does not mean they could not.

 

[KenH]

The biblical truth is that fallen humanity has limited autonomous will.

So you pit the sovereignty of man(at least in some areas) against the sovereignty of God, the Creator. You pit the vessel that was formed against the Potter, as though the vessel could ever be, in some form or fashion, its own potter..

 

[KenH]

Thus our will is obviously limited to what we have experienced or imagined.

Next we are predisposed in ways that curtail the likelihood of choosing to follow God's will.

So you place salvation into being a matter of luck or happenstance. Apparently, you believe that Christ's life and death are meaningless unless you decide to give it meaning and efficacy.

 

[KenH]

. Someone trusting in the gospel message is not a miracle and being saved is not.

Wow! What blasphemy! I do hope that you misspoke in saying that salvation is not a miracle.

 

[Van]

You said the dead can hear and quoted Jn 5:25

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Did you not know that Jesus here is speaking about a miracle ? Not something men naturally do. Do you believe men naturally hear when they are dead ? Next time you go to a funeral or see a corpse, speak to it to see if it hears you lol

I know what the verse says the spiritually dead can hear the message of Christ. You are the one claiming the dead cannot hear, that they must be regenerated first.

 

[KenH]

I know what the verse says the spiritually dead can hear the message of Christ. You are the one claiming the dead cannot hear, that they must be regenerated first.

Do you really believe that a dead corpse can hear sounds? Do you really believe that when God's Word calls people "dead" that they aren't really dead?

 

[Van]

So you pit the sovereignty of man(at least in some areas) against the sovereignty of God, the Creator. You pit the vessel that was formed against the Potter, as though the vessel could ever be, in some form or fashion, its own potter..

So you pit truth, (at least in some areas) against the sovereignty of Falselogy, your unbiblical doctrine. You pit your man-made doctrine against God's inspired word, as if your man-made false doctrines should be considered when directly contradicted by scripture.

Your doctrine says the spiritually dead cannot hear the message of Christ, God's word says the dead hear the Son of God.

 

[Van]

So you place salvation into being a matter of luck or happenstance. Apparently, you believe that Christ's life and death are meaningless unless you decide to give it meaning and efficacy.

Did I say salvation is based on luck? Nope so yet another manufactured material false statement. Truth has no meaning for the Falselogy advocates.

 

[Van]

Do you really believe that a dead corpse can hear sounds? Do you really believe that when God's Word calls people "dead" that they aren't really dead?

I really believe God's inspired words found in John 5:25. The dead hear the Son of God. Does not say the non-dead regenerated hear. That is your rewrite.

 

[Van]

John 5:25 says the dead can hear.

John 12:32 indicates if a person hears about Christ being crucified for their sin, they will be attracted to that gift opportunity.

Is John 6:44 speaking only to Jews? Nope.

Does the quickening power draw individuals to Christ? Nope. The claim was that bit of nonsense can be found "somewhere" in John chapter 6. But that too is fiction.

Yes, every indivdual given to (placed spiritually within) Christ is made alive eternally.

Jesus promised to not cast them out. John 6:37.

And we have yet another name for "irresistible grace." Here it is "constraining graces." I kid you not.

What is the actual attracting power termed "draw?" God's lovingkindness! No star trek tractor beam is found in scripture.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, raising Lazarus from the dead was a miracle. Someone trusting in the gospel message is not a miracle and being saved is not. God saves those that freely trust in His son. Being dead physically, as Lazarus was, is quite different from being dead spiritually, separated from God.

Lazarus could not raise himself from the dead but man, even a spiritually dead one, can hear and trust the gospel message and trust in Christ Jesus and be saved. Just because many will not trust does not mean they could not.

Thats my point. Man naturally are dead to God Spiritually, and so cant hear Gods voice. And be that the case, man naturally cant have Faith in Christ since Faith cometh by hearing. Dead folk cannot hear spiritually. Now when God draws a person by giving them New Birth, New Life, spiritual ears, then they hear and believe. But not until then !

 

[Brightfame52]

silverhair

Someone trusting in the gospel message is not a miracle and being saved is not.

Yes they are miracles of Grace. New Birth is a Miracle, and so its fruit of believing on Christ is a miracle. Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Without the miracle of Divine Intervention with the New Birth men cannot believe in Christ.

 

[KenH]

The dead hear the Son of God.

Yes, they hear, after being quickened to spiritual life.

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Ezekiel 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

 

[KenH]

So you pit truth, (at least in some areas) against the sovereignty of Falselogy

Do you really believe that, at least in some areas, man is sovereign and God is not?

 

[KenH]

Did I say salvation is based on luck? Nope so yet another manufactured material false statement. Truth has no meaning for the Falselogy advocates.

Can you explain what you meant when you wrote: "Thus our will is obviously limited to what we have experienced or imagined.

Next we are predisposed in ways that curtail the likelihood of choosing to follow God's will."?

 

[Brightfame52]

van

I know what the verse says the spiritually dead can hear the message of Christ.

Thats not what the verse says, however since the verse is speaking about Christ calling a person from death, Its the New Birth, the New Creation So the verse is talking about Christ regenerating a dead sinner. Just like when Lazarus was dead, Christs voice regenerated him to life. The word regenerate means birth or life again, birth anew, life anew

So yes in this case a dead sinner can hear when Christ makes them alive. That proves men had nothing to do in their new birth because they were dead when it took place. It proves also that hearing here wasn't by the natural man because he is dead.

 

[Brightfame52]

van

You are the one claiming the dead cannot hear, that they must be regenerated first.

Thats correct, dead people hear when they are regenerated.

Just like in Jn 5:28

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

These dead people will hear because Christ is raising them from the dead, same miracle, otherwise people dead in their graves cant hear, but you probably disagree with that also lol

 

[Silverhair]

Wow! What blasphemy!

There is your problem, you need God the miraculously save you before you even believe. That is just plain foolish. It is not a miracle that God saves those that trust in His son, it is God's response to those that fulfill the condition that He has set for salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

Thats my point. Man naturally are dead to God Spiritually, and so cant hear Gods voice. And be that the case, man naturally cant have Faith in Christ since Faith cometh by hearing. Dead folk cannot hear spiritually. Now when God draws a person by giving them New Birth, New Life, spiritual ears, then they hear and believe. But not until then !

You do realize the physical and spiritual dead are two different think? You are conflating them and that is because your theology requires it but it is not biblical.