"Election"

Austin you think that God sending the major part of humanity to hell for no other reason than He can is going to glorify God? That is just one of the many dumb ideas that comes out of Calvinism.

What is it that keeps a person from seeing and savoring the Christ of all saving grace?

If you're a consistent Calvinist it's God. God is keeping one from seeing God and yet their held responsible for not seeing God.

Remember your version of God is "totally absolutely 100% sovereign" so anything that happens or does not happen, He determines. So how or why is the man that rejects God held responsible for doing so as he is actually doing exactly what God has determined for him to do.

You say man can not have free will as that would mean God is not sovereign. Why do you limit God?

God is sovereign over his sovereignty.
To say that God can’t is, ironically, to deny God’s sovereignty.

God is sovereign you just will not let Him be sovereign. He has to fit your failed theology. You have tried very hard to sound like you actually know what you are talking about but your comments show how hollow your theology is. You do not even accept the bible unless you can change it to fit your view. Why is that Austin?

 

Let's just ponder what you are saying. You are saying that God has no reason to send people to hell.
Now, where in the Bible can we read that there is no reason to send people to hell.

You also think that God is not glorified when justice is served.

You just showed us your true theology. Thank you for revealing the humanism you hold.

Spiritual deadness. Dead in trespasses and sins.

Why must this be true? Did God break the Covenant with man?
God certainly ordained that Satan could sift Adam and Eve.

Is God the one who sinned so that humans are now born spiritually dead?

Yes, that's what God tells us in His Word. Why does God's Word bother you so much?

Because Adam and Eve broke the Covenant. In breaking the Covenant, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

When a computer program is bad and every computer is imaged from that program, is there any computer that is not created in corruption?

Humans do what the broken Covenant has coded. God has ordained that such corruption exists and that a means of redemption exists.

Silly question. God cannot do something against His nature. His Sovereignty means that no human can act outside of the ordained will of God. This does not mean we can't have a thought and act on it. It does mean that the action of a man is allowed or not allowed by God. Simply read the story of Balaam if this confuses you.

You have stated an oxymoron. Your statement shows the depth of your depravity.

Another oxymoronic statement.

Read the book of Job and understand how little we know about God. God doesn't "have to" anything. But God has shown us Himself in His Word and He tells us of His Sovereignty and Supremacy over all His creation. He holds all His creation in the palm of his hand.

Certainly you call my faith hollow. I trust God in all things. Nothing happens outside of God's ordination. Again, read the book of Job, the story of Joseph, the story of Ruth, indeed the narrative of the entire Bible. God orchestrates both the good and bad to his perfect will.

Yet another accusation. Show me where I re-write the text of any scripture.
Silverhair, we differ in our interpretation of scripture. You ignore the context and look at a sentence by which you create your theology. I read the whole of scripture and understand a sentence within it's full context.
Atheists and Muslims create their theology from sentences with no regard to context. That should really be a red flag to your method of hermeneutics, Silverhair.

I have and am studying to show myself approved. Your accusations are merely the expressions of your own human mind. May God be gracious to you.

 

Thank you, Brother, for your detailed responses to those specific questions. I changed my views to Reformed Theology (aka Calvinism) just a few years ago, but I am not very good at articulating responses to some objections. I've read books by Sproul, Bianchi, Owen, and Murray. I also visit Ligonier.org to read their articles. Reading detailed responses by brothers engaged in discussion help me understand what I've read before.

 

Since you agree that God is “totally absolutely 100% sovereign” although why you think you have to add the “totally absolutely 100%” I am not sure. God is either sovereign or He is not. The strange part is that you say He is and then you disagree with the statement “To say that God can’t is, ironically, to deny God’s sovereignty.” Actually you called the comment an “oxymoron”. But since you deny God the ability to do as He pleases, grant man a free will, would that not make your view an oxymoron. Of course it does, Calvinism is self contradictory, you want a sovereign God that is not really sovereign.

You equate sovereign with determinism as you show by your words “His Sovereignty means that no human can act outside of the ordained will of God.” For you God has to control/ordain all things, but look what this leads to. Israel “They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons,” Psalms 106:36-38. Israel forgot God and turned to other gods Jeremiah 5:19. They did things that God hates, Jeremiah 44:4. Since you say God has to decree/ordain all things then you have God working against Himself. You can not say that the people just did what they wanted as according to you man has no free will.

Read what you wrote, do you not see the contradiction? Well of course you don’t because you just can not see that your logic is flawed. You can not have God decree/ordain all things and say that man does not have a free will and yet claim that man is somehow responsible for the sin that God decreed form them to commit.

As one that knows God gave man a free will I can say and agree with the bible that those that are condemned are condemned because of their choices. They chose to reject Christ Jesus whereas for the Calvinist it is God that has determined that they reject Christ Jesus.

Your Calvinist logic is not logic at all, it is just wishful thinking. You have to hope no one looks behind the curtain.

Well actually the oxymoron that you continue to deny is Calvinism since you say “ God has decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass” Yet man is somehow able to do things that God did not decreed.

 

When one thinks through to the logical conclusion of Calvinism you find that it is a failed theology. To say that man can be held responsible for things that God has decreed for Him to do is illogical. The Calvinist should read about David & Uriah. Who was held responsible for Uriah's death.

From the free will position I can read the bible and agree that man is responsible for their actions the Calvinist can not do so unless they exhibit an extreme level of Cognitive Dissonance.

 

"All things are decided and caused by God – nothing is free from his control, and he has not chosen to forego his control on anything. The doctrine is repulsive to those who abhor the rule and honor of God, and so they oppose it. But the doctrine is a source of comfort and celebration to those who love him. Why would we want it any other way, than for God to rule over all things? And what better life can we wish for, than to be ruled by God? " (p92)

*Job 42:11*

Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.

 

Thank you, Brother Ken. Cheung spells it out pretty well in that section.

 

From the position that "free will" is a myth, I can read the Bible and agree that we are responsible for our actions. What you think of as "free will" has more to do with everyday choices. We choose what to do, where to go, what to eat. Unless we are drawn to Him, we are unable and unwilling to choose to follow Christ (John 6:44-45). Although I am still have much to learn concerning Calvinism, I have learned that man does not have free will in the sense of having control over his eternal destiny.

 

It is really sad to see that you have fallen for the Gnostic philosophy called Calvinism. As I said before, think that view through to it's logical end and you will see that it is not God honoring in the least.

Calvinists are committed to some form of theological determinism: God from eternity past determines everything that comes to pass, including human choices. As a consistent determinist this would mean your abilities to form beliefs and make decisions on matters of truth are determined.

This is a serious problem, because it means that if determinism is true, you have reason to doubt the very ability with which you have formed all your beliefs, including the belief in determinism itself, and therefore you have a reason to doubt it. That would render determinism literally self-refuting.

 

The Bane of Neo-Gnostic Calvinism
by Greg Fields



Who among us who have been illuminated by the Spirit of God to heartily embrace that exalted system of Pauline Theology commonly called "Calvinism" can forget the sublime joy experienced when these verities became manifest in our believing heart? For many of us grasping these truths or better, being gripped by these truths, was the real "second blessing" in our Christian pilgrimage. For me personally, sovereign grace teaching revivified my entire demeanor as a saint and delivered me from the morbid introspection engendered by Arminian, fundamentalist pietism. I have a passionate commitment to Calvinistic soteriology and am quite emphatic in my apologia for these truths that so exalt and glorify the grandeur of the Sovereign Triune Lord. Thus, it is with both sadness and reticence that I issue this urgent caveat regarding an extreme chimerical form of Calvinism that is spreading great mischief among the elect of God and dear souls seeking spiritual solace.

I have subsumed this subtle heresy under the rubric neo-gnostic Calvinism because the main tenets of this aberration of Calvinism involve primarily a comprehensive cognitive system of knowledge (gnosis) that must be firmly grasped and indoctrinated into before the professing Calvinist or seeking Arminian is truly considered "saved" by these ersatz-Calvinist "teachers". The subtlety involved in this neo-gnostic Calvinistic soteriology is that they vigorously promote truths that any committed believer would commend. For example, they incessantly exhort all to focus on Christ's imputation of Righteousness as being indispensable to one's salvation. Of course this is true and this needs to be emphatically declared in our presentation of the gospel. Particular Redemption is stressed with great vigor. Again, a hearty amen to the vital importance of this great doctrine is in order. They clearly enumerate the "five
points" with undiminished zeal. Again, I concur and wish we all would stress these great doctrines with the zeal demonstrated by these men.

If this was the focus and crux of what these men taught, I would be promoting their writings and encouraging all interested Calvinists to bookmark their websites and to participate in their e-group discussions. But, alas, these glorious doctrines are merely the frosting on the cake of their real agenda. After elucidating these verities they then go on to add to these truths a dogmatic unsubstantiated requirement for salvation that in effect nullifies all the peace and joy that should attend sovereign grace. They assert with bellicose intensity that unequivocally, all Arminians are lost because "Arminianism is a false gospel" and under the anathema of Gal. 1:8-9. They set the stage for this "leap of logic", by describing the five points of Arminianism and showing how incompatible Arminianism is with the gospel of grace. Again, any thoroughgoing evaluation of Arminianism would demonstrate this to be true but they then use this evaluation to assert that all who have never yet grasped the doctrines of grace to be by default, Arminians, thereby validating their "lostness". The insidious nature of their neo-gnosticism becomes manifestly transparent here. The major tenet of gnosticism was the acquisition of knowledge to achieve, N. B., salvation. Similarly they make the precise apprehension of soteriological doctrine the sine qua non of salvation. By utilizing a patina of superspirituality, they create a psychological ambiance that can easily intimidate a young believer who may be new to Calvinism or a seeking Arminian (although most folk, if we are honest are utterly oblivious to this historical-theological debacle) to capitulate to this cold, unrelenting dogmatism, creating a vituperative unloving demeanor and ironically robbing them of the comfort and joy these glorious
doctrines should inculcate in their hearts. This, to my mind, is the most utterly insidious forms of "works-righteousness" that I have ever encountered. By cleverly demanding that for one to truly be saved they must achieve a solid understanding of Calvinistic soteriology is to "make the cross of Christ of none effect". "Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to Thy cross I cling" as Toplady's exquisitely penned words succinctly state is the essence of the gospel offer. To make mere cognition the predicate of entrance into the kingdom of God's dear son is to despise God's sovereignty, Christ's finished work on the cross, and the blessed Holy Spirit's sovereign application of the redemption accomplished to "the apple of his eye", his beloved elect. It is vital beloved to discern the subtlety of their enticing words of wisdom. It is Christ who saves through faith, not our soteriological knowledge.

To further exacerbate their dissimulation, they dare to go even further. They dogmatically and shockingly assert that any professing Calvinist that does not concur with their Calvinistic neo-gnostic pretensions and believes that Arminians can be saved has "spoke peace to Arminians" thereby abrogating their own salvation. As one gleans their writings on this matter, one amazingly discovers that according to this chimerical premise, the most eminent saints in church history are apparently "lost"! A. A. Hodge, Spurgeon, D. Martyn-Lloyd Jones, Gordon Clark, Van Till ad infinitum, ad nauseum, are consigned to God's wrath by the unmitigated temerity of these neo-gnostics. These men simply did not "measure up" to their conceptualization of what constitutes "the doctrines of grace" and furthermore, they had the audacity to be gentle and forbearing and tenderhearted (they even dared to offer them Christian equanimity) to those of non-reformed persuasion. The tragic, belligerent absurdity promoted by these neo-gnostics should be evident to the discerning saint. Again, this is why it is vital to "study to show thyself approved, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" to counter this ancient heresy in new garb. The emperor still has no clothes as gnosticism, Satan’s grand masquerade, nefariously continues to attempt to vex and thwart God's saints in their earthly pilgrimage. It is admittedly difficult and requires God-given wisdom to sound forth these wonderfully God-centered, Christ-exalting truths in a bold yet loving manner that will in God's providence engender interest in Calvinism while giving glory to our Sovereignly Majestic Thrice-Holy Lord. Worshipping our Majestic Lord in spirit and in truth is true Calvinism. May our Lord illuminate our hearts to this glorious truth thereby granting us the Spirit-wrought discernment to live righteously, soberly and godly in this present evil age and to keep us from the evil one's subtleties, such as neo-gnosticist "Calvinism".

Essays on Neo-Gnostic Calvinism by Greg Fields

 

Who, here on the BB, holds to any nee-gnosticism? Does anyone claim an Arminians cannot have been redeemed by our Kings elective choice?
No one that I know of. Therefore, @Silverhair is busy trying to hurl unfounded accusations against the observed doctrines of scripture that he does not like.
In researching this accusation that Calvinism is gnostic I came across free will websites that simply abhor the doctrines of God's elective grace. It seems they would rather die in their sins than to be chosen by God without their own say in the matter. They cannot bear to think that God chooses whom he will have mercy upon and whom he will not. (Romans 9:15-16)

It seems to me that @Silverhair has been reading those sites and now is using the term to hurl accusations against that which he is woefully ignorant. Once again it is empty bluster on the part of Silverhair.

 

Contrary to your opinion, Brother, Calvinism is not a Gnostic philosophy. I believe Scripture, interpreted correctly, proves the doctrines of Election and Predestination to be sound. To repeat something I said earlier, I think you confuse "free will" with the ability to make everyday choices. Do you think that Calvinists believe God gives us every thought and decision. If so, you are mistaken, sir. Everyone - lost and saved - make choices all the time. However, the lost are unable to choose to call upon Christ as their Savior.

 

Forgive me, Brother, as I am still learning the doctrines of Reformed Theology. All our thoughts and decisions are actually directed by God, then? Could you provide Scripture to show me? I respect your views and recognize that you are much more familiar with the doctrines of grace. Thank you. BTW, I don't especially care for the term "Calvinist" either. I prefer to say that I subscribe to Reformed Theology.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble there Austin. I have not had to look anywhere to find that your view is Gnostic. Not sure what that ""nee-gnosticism" is but that's ok. I have read enough of yours and others material to realize that it is not the bible that you trust but rather yourselves.

But I don't blame you Austin or any other Calvinist that has posted on here. Your just doing what God has determined for you to do, why He would want you to deny clear scripture I am not sure but there you go, He did. Austin perhaps He is going to, at some point, show you and a few others on here just how arrogant you have been. I pray that He does.

You and a few others have exhibited quite un-christian attitudes with some of the pejoratives you have used against me but I do forgive you as you really had no ability to do otherwise.

I have come to realize that you are just playing out your roll that God has determined for you. God has been using you to grow me up in sanctification to be more Christ like. Romans 8:29 So I have to thank-you for being you as you are helping me be more accepting of those that unjustly attack me. Isaiah 26:10

So I do pray that you, Austin, and all the other Calvinists on here will take these words to heart.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

 

Your the determinist not me. I can and have freely trusted in the Lord. You have to trust in your determinism.

 

But Ken I have to ask why do you think that "preaching, teaching, and spreading the gospel of Christ is so important" if God has determined those that will be saved and this was done before the foundation of the world according to Calvinism. So with or with out any "preaching, teaching, and spreading the gospel of Christ" the so called Calvinist elect will be saved or do you not believe your own philosophical teachings?

Determinists seem to be a very confused group.