Conditional election.

[Silverhair]

oh brother

Does that mean that you are now going to read things in context. It will help you come to a correct understanding of scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

The fact you studied the Greek should have helped you but it does not seem to have done so. When you continue to ignore context it just leads to you a misunderstanding of the text.

I don't think you know what the word context means.

 

[Reformed1689]

Does that mean that you are now going to read things in context.

I already do.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't think you know what the word context means.

Oh I understand but I do question if you do. That seems to be a problem for many calvinists. Proof texting is just that, you grab verses out of context and then wonder why people do not agree with your view.

 

[Brightfame52]

Did you forget this verse Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, I hope not.

So did God elect sinners or does He elect those that have trusted in His son. Context BF context, you have to remember context.

1Th 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Thessalonians' Faith and Example
1Th 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers,
1Th 1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
1Th 1:4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
1Th 1:6 And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit,
1Th 1:7 so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe.

BF the person has to hear the message before they can believe the message. Is that such a hard concept for you to grasp. You have to ignore or read into scripture in order to make it fit your theology.

Again, all sinners are not Gods elect, you never heard that from me, and you probably never heard it from anyone else calling themselves a calvinist.

 

[Brightfame52]

I cannot help what seems to be your unbelief.

No. Just in God's choosing.

Gods choosing makes it so. Were people in Adam before they were born ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Then your witness is false, you do not hold to clear scripture but rather twist it to fit your theology.
How you can ignore the text of the bible and say you are here to witness to the truth of the bible is laughable. You remind me of the Pharisees, you read the text and miss what it says because your looking for something else.

Remember context matters. You can not just pull words out of the bible willy-nilly and use them to support your view. By your method one could show there is no God. BF your method of proof texting just proves that you do not in fact trust scripture but rather trust yourself.

Again, I can only witness the truth, I prove my witness with scripture, but its not my job to prove things to your understanding. Only God can give you understanding of scripture truth friend.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your question is to the answer I had already given to the question. It would seem you are incapable of even hearing my point view. It makes it impossible so you could not even possibly explain why my view is wrong.

Your answers are always vague and wishy washy, you act like you afraid to answer questions with firm answers with conviction !

 

[AustinC]

No. I do not believe the election is done before the foundation of the world. Only God's choosing which precedes the election.

Wait! What?

So God chooses before the foundation of the world, but making a choice that predetermines who is saved is not election of who is saved?

Honestly, that is just stupid on your part. Just stupid.

God never expresses what you have asserted. You have literally made this up out of thin air.

The question is...why? Why do you make a distinction that God doesn't make. Why do you need this for your theology?

 

[Silverhair]

Again, all sinners are not Gods elect, you never heard that from me, and you probably never heard it from anyone else calling themselves a calvinist.

Your theology would require that. We know that all have sinned and since God picked out those sinners before creation then would that not include all sinners? Remember calvinists keep saying God does not look at anything in the person so why would He not pick all or is His choice just arbitrary? In other words just the luck of the draw.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, I can only witness the truth, I prove my witness with scripture, but its not my job to prove things to your understanding. Only God can give you understanding of scripture truth friend.

You have been shown on a number of posts that your view is in error but you still persist in holding to it. It does not appear that you are trusting in scripture but rather your calvinism.

 

[Silverhair]

Wait! What?

So God chooses before the foundation of the world, but making a choice that predetermines who is saved is not election of who is saved?

Honestly, that is just stupid on your part. Just stupid.

God never expresses what you have asserted. You have literally made this up out of thin air.

The question is...why? Why do you make a distinction that God doesn't make. Why do you need this for your theology?

The real question is why do you ignore context. Eph 1:1 tells you who the "us" in verse 4 is but you just refuse to accept what Paul said. The only time that someone is elect is when they are in Christ and since no one was in Christ before creation that shows that your idea of election is full of water.

 

[37818]

God's choosing makes it so.

Makes what so?

Were people in Adam before they were born ?

Because they were before being born.

 

[37818]

Your answers are always vague and wishy washy, you act like you afraid to answer questions with firm answers with conviction !

No. Not so. My views are explicit. They are being denied by those who find they can't agree with them. By supposing what is not in evidence. Supposing God's choice before the foundation of the world to be the elections.

 

[37818]

So God chooses before the foundation of the world, but making a choice that predetermines who is saved is not election of who is saved?

Because an election is the result of being saved. Otherwise to ". . . give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ." wouldn't be possible.

 

[AustinC]

Because an election is the result of being saved.

No!

Otherwise to ". . . give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ." wouldn't be possible.

You are completely missing what Peter is saying.

*2 Peter 1:1,3-11*

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Peter is telling us that the election already took place before the foundation of the world. He tells in the previous verses that we have obtained it. We confirm it by the supplements that are added.

Honestly, your assertion is not supported by Peter's teaching. In fact, your assertion is destroyed by Peter's teaching. How have you made this mistake? Have you simply not read the letter?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

As you had pointed out that choosing [as a singular Ephesians 1:4] is the very same choosing by which God elect's his elect [plural in Mark 13:20]. I understand those elected to take place in time for the believers.

What I still don't understand is how election 'in time' does not directly contradict Ephesians 1:4 which very plainly states (as does 2 Thessalonians 2:13) that God's election takes place in eternity.

1 Thessalonians 1:4 per 2 Peter 1:10, ". . . give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ." Otherwise unless it is the believers election in time doing so as instructed would not be possible.

1 Thes. 1:4. 'Knowing brothers, your election by God......' How does Paul know? Because Paul's word to them came with great power through the Holy Spirit, and the faith of the Thessalonians came to them with much assurance (v.5).
2 Peter 1:10. 'Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.' What are 'these things'? They are the things Peter commands in vs. 5-7. How can someone be sure that he is a child of God? Well to be sure, by the witness of the Spirit (Romans 8:16), but it is possible to be deceived in such matters (Matthew 7:21-23). If it is our delight to serve God and to keep His commandments (cf. 1 John 2:3-4) and it upsets us when we fall short, that is a clear sign that the Spirit is working within us and that we are elect.
But none of this contradicts Ephesians 1:4 etc. that believers are the chosen of God from eternity.
I hope that helps, but I don't expect it will.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your theology would require that. We know that all have sinned and since God picked out those sinners before creation then would that not include all sinners? Remember calvinists keep saying God does not look at anything in the person so why would He not pick all or is His choice just arbitrary? In other words just the luck of the draw.

You must not be aware of what the doctrines of Grace state, that Christs death and election is limited to some, not all without exception.

 

[Brightfame52]

You have been shown on a number of posts that your view is in error but you still persist in holding to it. It does not appear that you are trusting in scripture but rather your calvinism.

I say likewise, scripture has showned you in error, grave error at that.

 

[Brightfame52]

Makes what so?
Because they were before being born.

See, you cant even follow a simple discourse.