Featured About a Pastor who was twice a 5 point Calvinist.

I think the trouble with the "L", limited atonement, is that it depends on the presupposition that God knows everything and that there is nothing for Him to discover or find out. That is true for God but it is above us. So we tend to always view the limited atonement as a barrier put up by God that prevents someone from coming to Christ who wants to. The truth is that if you hear the gospel you have direct promises that you can come and your sins will be forgiven. But logically, we think in terms of " if this is true then that must follow". God made us that way and we shouldn't be ashamed of it but it does limit our understanding. One time at our church we underestimated the number of people who came to a Christmas eve service and we did not pour out enough juice for everyone. I joked later that the folks almost got a lesson in limited atonement that they will never forget! But unfortunately, that is the way most non Calvinists view the "L".

 

KY I am just responding to what you have written. You write one thing then jump when someone points out the problems with what you have written.

"This is as simple as it gets, the scriptures are not addressed to 'man', they're addressed to 'the saints':" post # 82 these are your words.

 

Same comment from you same reply from me.

 

references;
Chapter 16 The Original State and Fall of Man Chapter
17 The Doctrine of Sin Chapter
18 Human Responsibility Chapter
19 The Free Agency of Man

 

Mostly in, "THE DOCTRINE OF SIN" and
"C. Man is by Nature Spiritually Dead. Rom. 5:12; Col. 2:16; 1 John 3:14.

D. Therefore He Cannot Comprehend Spiritual Things. 1 Cor. 2:14.

E. Hence He Cannot Until Quickened by the Spirit of God, Turn From Sin to God in Godly Penitence and Faith. Jer. 13:23; John 6:44,65; 12:39,40."

In simple words this means that a man is not what he is because of what he does;
rather he does what he does because of what he is, fundamentally speaking.


It is very important that we have an adequate understanding of sin.
Many modern errors concerning salvation cannot be held
by those who think logically if they have a proper conception of sin.

I. THE NATURE OF SIN Sin is a hydra-headed thing. It presents different phases.
An adequate treatment of sin must deal with these different phases:

1. SIN AS AN ACT. In 1 John 3:4 we have the definition of sin as an act.
It is a transgressing or a going contrary to the law of God.

2. SIN AS A STATE. There are many people who cannot or will not see that sin goes deeper than an overt act. A little reflection will show that our acts are but expressions of our inner selves. Inward sinfulness then must precede overt acts of sin. Jesus taught this in principle when He said:

"Either make the tree good, and his fruit good;
or make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt:
for the tree is known by his fruit" (Matt. 12:33).

This means that there must be a corrupt tree before there can be corrupt fruit.
Jesus taught this truth explicitly when He said:

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders,
adulteries, thefts, false witness, blasphemies . . ." (Matt. 15:19).

He taught it again when He said:

"And this is the condemnation: that light is come into the world,
and men loved darkness rather than light" (John 3:19).

Still again He taught it in the Sermon on the Mount
by emphasizing the fact that men can break the commandments of God
by harboring evil thoughts.

See Matt. 5:21,22,27,28.

In simple words this means that a man is not what he is because of what he does;
rather he does what he does because of what he is, fundamentally speaking.

Note the following additional scriptural proofs that man is not only sinful in conduct, but that he also exists in a sinful state- a lack of conformity to God in mind and heart:

(1) The Hebrew and Greek words translated "sin" are as applicable
to dispositions and states as to acts.

(2) Sin may consist of omitting to do the right thing as well as of doing the wrong thing.
"To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas. 4.17).

(3) Evil is ascribed to thoughts and affections. Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Heb. 3:I2.

(4) The state of the soul that gives rise to overt acts of sin is expressly called sin. Rom. 7:8,11,13,14,17,20 (5) Sin is alluded to as a reigning principle in the life. Rom. 6:21 3.

SIN AS A PRINCIPLE. In principle sin is rebellion against God. It is refusing to do the will of Him who has every right to demand obedience of US.

4. SIN IN ESSENCE. "We may follow Dr. E. G. Robinson in saying that, while sin as a state is unlikeness to God, as a principle is opposition to God, and as an act is transgression of God's law, the essence of it always and everywhere is selfishness" (Strong Systematic Theology, p. 295).

Sin may be described as a tree of self-will, having two tap roots. One is a "no" to God and His demands. The other is a "yes" to self and self's interests. This tree is capable of bearing every manner of sin in the catalogue of sins. Selfishness is always manifest in the sinner in the elevation of "some lower affection or desire above regard for God and His law" (Strong). No matter what form sin may take, it is always found to have selfishness as its root.

Sin may take the forms of avarice, pride, vanity, ambition, sensuality, jealousy, or even love of others- in which case others are loved because they are conceived of as being in some way connected with or contributing to self. The sinner may seek truth, but always for selfish, egotistical purposes.

He may give his goods to feed the poor, or even his body to be burned, but only through selfish desire for fleshly gratification or for honor or reward. Sin as selfishness has four component parts:

"(1) Self will, instead of submission;

(2) self-seeking, instead of benevolence;

(3) self-righteousness, instead of humility and reverence;

(4) self-sufficiency, instead of faith" (Harris).

In proof of the fact that sin is essentially selfishness we urge the following considerations:

(1) In the apostasy of the last days it is said that
"men shall be lovers of self,"

and also "lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." (2 Tim. 3:2,4).

(2) When the "man of sin" is revealed, he shall be he that
"exalteth himself against all that is called God" (2 Thess. 2:4).

(3) The essence of the law of God is to love God supremely and others as self. The opposite of this, the supreme love of self, must be the essence of sin. Matt. 22:37-39.

(4) Satan's apostasy consisted of the preference of self and selfish ambition to God and his will. Isa. 14:12-15; Ezek. 28:12-18.

(5) The sin of Adam and Eve in the garden sprang from a preference of self and self-gratification to God and His will. Eve ate of the forbidden fruit because she thought it would give desired wisdom. Adam partook of the fruit because he preferred his wife to God; and the reason he preferred his wife to God is that he conceived of his wife as contributing more than God to his self-gratification.

(6) Cain's murder of Abel was prompted by jealousy, which is a form of selfishness.

(7) Selfishness is the cause of the sinner's impenitence. God has commanded all men everywhere to repent.

Men refuse to do this because they prefer their own wills to the will of God.

We see, then, that sin is not merely a result of man's imperfect development. It is a perversity of the will and disposition.

Man will never outgrow it so long as he is in the flesh. Regeneration puts a check upon it; but it does not destroy it.

Nor is sin the mere result of the union of the spirit with the body.

The spirit itself is sinful and would be just as sinful out of the body as in the body if left in its natural state.

Satan has no body; yet he is supremely sinful.

Neither is sin mere finiteness. The elect angels in Heaven are finite; yet they are without sin. Glorified saints will still be finite; yet they will have no sin.
...
2. TOTAL DEPRAVITY CONSIDERED POSITIVELY.

Total depravity means that sin has permeated every faculty of man's being just as a drop of poison would permeate every molecule of a glass of water.

Sin has warped every faculty in man, and thus it taints his every act.

(1) Proof of Total Depravity.

A. Man is Depraved in Mind. Gen. 6:5.

B. In Heart. Jer. 17:9.

C. In Affections so that He is Averse to God. John 3: 19; Rom. 8:7.

D. In Conscience. Titus 1:15; Heb. 10:22.

E. In Speech. Psa. 58:3; Jer. 8:6; Rom. 3:13.

F. Depraved from Head to Foot. Isa. 1:5,6.

G. Depraved when Born. Psa. 51:5; Psa. 58:3.

(2) The Effect of Total Depravity.

A. No Remnant of Good Remains in Man by Nature. Rom. 7: I&

B. Therefore Man by Nature Cannot Subject Himself to the Law of God or Please God. Rom. 8:7,8.

C. Man is by Nature Spiritually Dead. Rom. 5:12; Col. 2:16; 1 John 3:14.

D. Therefore He Cannot Comprehend Spiritual Things. 1 Cor. 2:14.

E. Hence He Cannot Until Quickened by the Spirit of God, Turn From Sin to God in Godly Penitence and Faith. Jer. 13:23; John 6:44,65; 12:39,40.

The basis of depravity and spiritual inability lies in the heart.

It is deceitful and incurably wicked (Jer. 17:9). Out of the heart are the issues of life (Prov. 4:23).

No one can bring a clean thing out of an unclean one (Job 14:4). Hence neither holiness nor faith can proceed from the natural heart.

Good things proceed from a good heart
and evil things proceed from an evil heart (Matt. 7:17,18; Luke 6:45).

...

That "good heart" must be Born Again of The Spirit of God.

"Either make the tree good, and his fruit good;
or make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt:
for the tree is known by his fruit" (Matt. 12:33).

 

What, "role", is that?

"the role the divine knowledge of good and evil plays in mankind
now having from conception a sinful nature."

 

Romans 5:6-8

6 For when we were yet without strength,
in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die:
yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that,
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

from; http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons - A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf

"Now from all this it appears,
that redemption is not universal, is not of all men;

for though they are many for whom the ransom price is paid;
yet though all are many, many are not all;

and if the redeemed are such who are the objects of God's special love
and favour, then not all men;

for there are some of whom it is said,

"He that made them, will not have mercy on them;
and he that formed them, will show them no favour", #Isa 27:11.

If they are the elect of God who are redeemed by Christ,
and them only, then not all men;

for all are not chosen;

"The election hath obtained it";

and

"the rest are blinded", #Ro 11:7

if only those are redeemed for whom Christ became a surety,
then not all men;

since Christ did not engage to pay the debts of all men;

and if they are the people of God and Christ, then not all;

since there are some on whom God writes a "loammi", saying,

"Ye are not my people; and I will not be your God",
#Ho 1:9.

And if they are the sheep of Christ, to whom he gives eternal life;
then not the goats, who will go into everlasting punishment;

and if they are the children of God,
and the church and spouse of Christ;
then not all men;

for all do not bear these characters, nor stand in these relations.

What may be further necessary, will be to produce some reasons,
or arguments, against universal redemption;

and to give answer to such scriptures as are brought in favour of it.

It should be observed, that it is agreed on both sides,
that all are not eventually saved: could universal salvation be established,

there would be no objection to universal redemption;

the former not being the case the latter cannot be true;

Christ certainly saves all whom he redeems.

 

What is their 'testimony' of being, "Lost"?
...

God has commanded all men everywhere to repent.
Men refuse to do this because they prefer their own wills to the will of God.

 

God has commanded all men everywhere to repent.
Men refuse to do this because they prefer their own wills to the will of God.

 

The bible contains many "whoevers", & no "whoever if elects".

 

If God were silent (Deism) would anyone believe?

Romans 1 tells us that we would substitute God for something in creation and never seek God. There would never be a whoever.

The fact that the Bible says something about God means that God is active and speaking to all who hear the voice of the Good Shepherd. Yet, people hear and don't believe. Why?

*John 10:25-29*

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

 

Just not willingly, right? Otherwise, it would imply free will.

 

From the article:

"The fundamental problem with Calvinism is the Gospel, which has two distinct elements. The first is the PROVISION – "Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)."

My friends, as I see it, the fundamental problem with this article ( and hence the author's view of the Gospel ) is this:

To me he looks at 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 as applying to all men. But the letter is written to those who had already believed, those of God's elect at Corinth...
The same ones the Lord told Paul in Acts of the Apostles:

" Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city. And he continued [there] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them." ( Acts of the Apostles 18:9-11 ).

The Lord told Paul that there were many of His elect at Corinth, and to speak because of this.
This letter, and all of the epistles to the churches, were written only to those who have and had believed, and is in no way an appeal to, or even applies to, all men indiscriminately.
There is no "provision", and there never has been.


"The second is the APPROPRIATION – "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31). Calvinism virtually strips the Gospel of its provisional element. For the doctrine of Limited Atonement denies to EVERY sinner ANY objective assurance that Christ died for his or hr sins!"

Quite the contrary,
So-called "Calvinism" ( God choosing sinners to salvation, in Christ before the foundation of the world ) strips away the false gospel of appropriating grace through works, by removing any possibility of a man or woman performing an act that would help them to gain what God only gives as a gift...
Freely given to whomever the Lord wills and freely received by His children through His decision to have mercy and compassion on them. ( Romans 9 ).

What it does is declare that those who have believed, have done so because they were ordained to eternal life...
and God's wrath, rather than being upon them ( like it is for the unbeliever ), has been propitiated by their Saviour's sacrifice on the cross.

Christ died for our ( the believer's ) sins according to the Scriptures...
The very same Scriptures ( such as Isaiah 53, for example ) which tell us this:

"He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken." ( Isaiah 53:8 ).


Isaiah's people are the people of God, the "Israel of God".
Christ died for them and them alone and saves only those who were given to Him by His Father.

 

Noted in post #82.