How Autonomous

[Marooncat79]

Interesting discussion here

especially how it relates to missions and unreached areas

 

[Van]

It has been claimed that election to an office within the church, whether minister or leader, is found nowhere in the New Testament. However if we consider Acts 14:23 and 2 Corinthians 8:19, people are selected by a stretching out of the hand, i.e. voting. Thus the autonomous authority of the congregation is indeed found in the New Testament.

And this principle is a Baptist Distinctive, so how come those advocating insurrection are posting the views of other denominations?

 

[AustinC]

It has been claimed that election to an office within the church, whether minister or leader, is found nowhere in the New Testament. However if we consider Acts 14:23 and 2 Corinthians 8:19, people are selected by a stretching out of the hand, i.e. voting. Thus the autonomous authority of the congregation is indeed found in the New Testament.

And this principle is a Baptist Distinctive, so how come those advocating insurrection are posting the views of other denominations?

Your verses don't make that claim.

 

[AustinC]

I agree, but how does this look as a church government?

What I mean is if we have some governing body over churches that body is not the same as the early church had (it would essentially be no different than congregationalism, except perhaps fewer voices accepted by a larger population).

In principle I agree with you, and am not disagreeing. I just don't know how this would look in practice.

The ordination of elders would be done by those in the denomination who are established and honored leaders from the denomination. The Pastor would be responsible to recommend. The congregation can provide opinion. The ordination council would question and review the candidate for eldership.

 

[JonC]

The ordination of elders would be done by those in the denomination who are established and honored leaders from the denomination. The Pastor would be responsible to recommend. The congregation can provide opinion. The ordination council would question and review the candidate for eldership.

But that creates other issues (as far as being biblical).

Scripture simply does not provide enough information when it comes to church government.

We know when churches were being established elders were appointed by an Apostle driven leadership. We know this leadership chose a pastor. And we know the pastor and elders were chosen from within the congregation (they did not come from another church). We know the congregation chose deacons.

But the council was outside of the congregation and led directly by the Apostles. These were not councils chosen by a denomination and were responsible for several denominations (the congregation in Corinth, for example, would be what we'd consider a different denomination from the congregations in Jerusalem as they held what we would consider denominational differences).

 

[Marooncat79]

No doubt in new areas it’s prob a sole pastor

I’m afraid I may be more presby than most

it would seemingly cut down on heresy

 

[AustinC]

But that creates other issues (as far as being biblical).

Scripture simply does not provide enough information when it comes to church government.

We know when churches were being established elders were appointed by an Apostle driven leadership. We know this leadership chose a pastor. And we know the pastor and elders were chosen from within the congregation (they did not come from another church). We know the congregation chose deacons.

But the council was outside of the congregation and led directly by the Apostles. These were not councils chosen by a denomination and were responsible for several denominations (the congregation in Corinth, for example, would be what we'd consider a different denomination from the congregations in Jerusalem as they held what we would consider denominational differences).

You realize that this is an argument that the RCC makes as well as the Orthodox church. Succession from the Apostles.
It's actually a biblical pattern, but it went off track when tradition trumped scripture.
I think the concept of succession is sound, as long as those who pass on the succession remain grounded in God's word.
Was this not the very core and essence of the Reformation?

 

[JonC]

You realize that this is an argument that the RCC makes as well as the Orthodox church. Succession from the Apostles.
It's actually a biblical pattern, but it went off track when tradition trumped scripture.
I think the concept of succession is sound, as long as those who pass on the succession remain grounded in God's word.
Was this not the very core and essence of the Reformation?

Actually I was thinking the same of your position, just wasn't going there because we both obviously disagree with the RCC idea.

What I am saying is that we KNOW I an right about what is in the Bible concerning the leadership of the Apostles and the council that met in Jerusalem. That is not in question.

What I am asking is exactly how we can create such a council (which you answered, and I agree) and it be prescribed by Scripture (this is the part I was pointing out).

 

[John of Japan]

There kind of was. The churches answered to the Apostles. In the absence of true Apostles, that can't happen now.

As a former missionary, I'd say that each church only answered to the apostle/missionary who planted it. Even then, there was not institutional authority as in a denomination, but spiritual authority as the believers responded to their discipler, the church planter. Paul wrote to a church he planted, "If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord" (1 Cor. 9:2).

Being a church history prof, I love the early church and have read a lot on the 1st three centuries, but found no evidence of a denomination until perhaps the 4th century. "Bishops" from that era were local church pastors. Along with most scholars, I put the Catholic religion in the 6th century, though local denominations might have developed in the 4th-5th centuries.

 

[AustinC]

The White Horse Inn has a good podcast titled: "Are You Called to Ministry." It's a good listen

Are You Called to Ministry?

 

[Marooncat79]

There is a serious vacuum there

I blame seeker churches who changed church to consumerism instead of service

 

[Marooncat79]

As a former missionary, I'd say that each church only answered to the apostle/missionary who planted it. Even then, there was not institutional authority as in a denomination, but spiritual authority as the believers responded to their discipler, the church planter. Paul wrote to a church he planted, "If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord" (1 Cor. 9:2).

Being a church history prof, I love the early church and have read a lot on the 1st three centuries, but found no evidence of a denomination until perhaps the 4th century. "Bishops" from that era were local church pastors. Along with most scholars, I put the Catholic religion in the 6th century, though local denominations might have developed in the 4th-5th centuries.

Roughly- how many pastors are in Japan?

missionaries?

 

[AustinC]

As a former missionary, I'd say that each church only answered to the apostle/missionary who planted it. Even then, there was not institutional authority as in a denomination, but spiritual authority as the believers responded to their discipler, the church planter. Paul wrote to a church he planted, "If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord" (1 Cor. 9:2).

Being a church history prof, I love the early church and have read a lot on the 1st three centuries, but found no evidence of a denomination until perhaps the 4th century. "Bishops" from that era were local church pastors. Along with most scholars, I put the Catholic religion in the 6th century, though local denominations might have developed in the 4th-5th centuries.

A fun listen is John Gerstner's "Handout Church History" at Ligonier Ministries. It's 39 half hour teachings on Church History. It's a great summary for people.

Handout Church History by John Gerstner | Ligonier Ministries

 

[AustinC]

There is a serious vacuum there

I blame seeker churches who changed church to consumerism instead of service

It's the theology of "free will" and Charles Finney that imagines humans save humans by making the cross attractive and emotionally compelling. Entertain to bring them in and weave an emotional story to hook them. It is exactly what the mini-series "The Chosen" does with each episode.

 

[Van]

Your verses don't make that claim.

Yes they do!

Note how the ignorant use personal incredulity, not knowing such argumentation is fallacious.

RGT
And when they had prayed and fasted and ordained them as elders by election in every church, they commended them to the Lord in Whom they believed.

NMB
And they appointed elders by election in every congregation, and prayed and fasted, and committed them to God on whom they believed.

NOG
They had the disciples in each church choose spiritual leaders, and with prayer and fasting they entrusted the leaders to the Lord in whom they believed.

GW
They had the disciples in each church choose spiritual leaders, and with prayer and fasting they entrusted the leaders to the Lord in whom they believed.

GNV
And when they had ordained them Elders by election in every Church, and prayed, and fasted, they commended them to the Lord in whom they believed.

EHV
They had elders elected for them in every church, and with prayer and fasting they entrusted them to the Lord, in whom they believed.​

As anyone can see, this verse has been translated in several different ways:
1) Did the church establish the elders or did Paul and Barnabas pick them?
2) How was the choice made, by stretching out of hands in a vote (election) or by the edict of Paul and Barnabas?

Here is the Biblical usage:

1. to vote by stretching out the hand
   
   
2. to create or appoint by vote: one to have charge of some office or duty
   
3. to elect, create, appoint

The conclusion, in light of 2 Corinthians 8:19 which clearly indicates the cause of the action of selection are the church members, is that Acts 14:23 refers to an election by a show of hands.

 

[AustinC]

Yes they do!

Note how the ignorant use personal incredulity, not knowing such argumentation is fallacious.

RGT
And when they had prayed and fasted and ordained them as elders by election in every church, they commended them to the Lord in Whom they believed.

NMB
And they appointed elders by election in every congregation, and prayed and fasted, and committed them to God on whom they believed.

NOG
They had the disciples in each church choose spiritual leaders, and with prayer and fasting they entrusted the leaders to the Lord in whom they believed.

GW
They had the disciples in each church choose spiritual leaders, and with prayer and fasting they entrusted the leaders to the Lord in whom they believed.

GNV
And when they had ordained them Elders by election in every Church, and prayed, and fasted, they commended them to the Lord in whom they believed.

EHV
They had elders elected for them in every church, and with prayer and fasting they entrusted them to the Lord, in whom they believed.​

As anyone can see, this verse has been translated in several different ways:
1) Did the church establish the elders or did Paul and Barnabas pick them?
2) How was the choice made, by stretching out of hands in a vote (election) or by the edict of Paul and Barnabas?

Here is the Biblical usage:

1. to vote by stretching out the hand
   
   
2. to create or appoint by vote: one to have charge of some office or duty
   
3. to elect, create, appoint

The conclusion, in light of 2 Corinthians 8:19 which clearly indicates the cause of the action of selection are the church members, is that Acts 14:23 refers to an election by a show of hands.

I see. You looked for the least used interpretations and claim they are correct while ignoring the best translations.

 

[Van]

I see. You looked for the least used interpretations and claim they are correct while ignoring the best translations.

I looked at what the word means, as used its two places and did not invent an agenda driven translation.

 

[John of Japan]

Roughly- how many pastors are in Japan?

missionaries?

About 900 evangelical missionaries (450 couples) nowadays, but I'm not sure of the number of Japanese pastors. There are about 100 IFB churches (missionary or pastor), and maybe 500 or so SBC churches.

 

[Marooncat79]

For reference: The state of KY has 2,400 SBC Churches and a population of 4.5M

Japan 126M

 

[John of Japan]

For reference: The state of KY has 2,400 SBC Churches and a population of 4.5M

Japan 126M

American Christians are spoiled. For example, there is only one reference Bible in Japanese--and it is put out by the JWs!