Door Knocking? C vs A

[KenH]

You have to use mans free will to have them come to God in faith That is you realizing that your view does not work as you would like it to

It's not a matter of what I "like". The Bible teaches that God uses means to effect His sovereign will. What is so hard for you to understand about that?

 

[KenH]

Is what I said regarding calvinism not what calvinism teaches?

First off, you should probably run that question by someone who follows after John Calvin.

Second, "Calvinism" is a general, organized, systematic hermeneutical method used to interpret the Bible. You need to understand that beyond the general principles, there are a lot of variations among those who you would probably lump under your idea of "Calvinism". You would be better served dealing with what I have written and not what your idea of "Calvinism" is nor the straw man you have created in your mind that is not in line with what I have written.

 

[Silverhair]

They can't be lost according to the words of Christ.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

You are struggling to make your point but failing to do so. Man has to hear the gospel as you have already admitted and they have to believe it, which you have already admitted then they are saved, which you already admitted. Once a person believes and if they continue to believe then they will not be lost and no one can pluck them out of Gods' hand.

But if one does not continue in faith they can be cut off by God. (Romans 11:20-22)

 

[KenH]

You are struggling to make your point but failing to do so.

No, I am not. You are opposed to the plain teaching of the Bible.

Man has to hear the gospel as you have already admitted and they have to believe it, which you have already admitted then they are saved, which you already admitted.

My "admitting" it is irrelevant. The Bible teaches it.

Once a person believes and if they continue to believe then they will not be lost

There is no doubt that they will be preserved by God and persevere in the faith.

Romans 14:4 he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Further, a the story I heard goes something like this: A preacher was visiting an older woman and he was trying to make her be afraid that she might not persevere in the faith. She told him that about John chapter 10 and that no one could pluck her out of God's hand. The preacher replied, "But what if you slip through His fingers?" To which she replied, "Don't be stupid, man! I am one of His fingers!"

 

[Silverhair]

Amen!

Romans 3:3-4 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,

That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings,
And mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I agree man's unbelief does not reflect upon God. We will all be judged for our own decisions.

 

[KenH]

We will all be judged for our own decisions.

The elect are judged in Christ. If you want to be judged on your performance like unbelievers, then go ahead. But I wouldn't want to be standing in your shoes if you do.

 

[KenH]

But if one does not continue in faith they can be cut off by God. (Romans 11:20-22)

"if thou continue in his goodness; meaning not the love, grace, and free favour of God, or the grace of the Spirit, a continuance in which no "if" is to be put upon; for such who are interested in the love of God always continue in it, and nothing can separate them from it; and such as have the graces of the Spirit implanted in them, as faith, hope, and love, can never lose them; these always remain in them, and they in the possession of them, though not always in the exercise of them; but the goodness of God in a church state is here meant, as the means of grace and comfort, the ministration of the word and ordinances; and the sense is, if thou dost not despise the riches of divine goodness in a church relation, if thou dost not abuse it, or walk unworthy of it, if thou abidest by it, and retainest a value for it, thou wilt still share the advantages of it:

otherwise thou also shall be cut off; from the good olive tree, the Gospel church state, into which the Gentiles were taken; and which, with respect to particular persons, may intend the act of excommunication by the church, expressed in Scripture by purging the old leaven, putting away the wicked person, withdrawing from such that are disorderly, and rejecting heretics, that is, from the communion of the church; and with respect to whole bodies and societies, an entire unchurching of them by removing the Gospel, and the ordinances of it; which threatening has been awfully fulfilled in many Gentile churches, in Asia, Africa, and Europe; and therefore may serve to awaken our fear, care, and caution, lest we should be treated in like manner."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Romans 11:22

 

[Silverhair]

No, I am not. You are opposed to the plain teaching of the Bible.



My "admitting" it is irrelevant. The Bible teaches it.



There is no doubt that they will be preserved by God and persevere in the faith.

Romans 14:4 he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Further, a the story I heard goes something like this: A preacher was visiting an older woman and he was trying to make her be afraid that she might not persevere in the faith. She told him that about John chapter 10 and that no one could pluck her out of God's hand. The preacher replied, "But what if you slip through His fingers?" To which she replied, "Don't be stupid, man! I am one of His fingers!"

Ken it is good to see that you have finally agreed with the bible, man has the free will to respond to the gospel message or to reject it. Although God desires all to be saved He will not force anyone to be saved.

 

[KenH]

But if one does not continue in faith they can be cut off by God.

Romans 8:33-39 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written,

For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Silverhair]

The elect are judged in Christ. If you want to be judged on your performance like unbelievers, then go ahead. But I wouldn't want to be standing in your shoes if you do.

Did you miss the part about we will all be judged for our decisions. You know the one of whether we trust in Christ Jesus or not. That is not performance there Ken, you seem to be looking for the negative in whatever someone posts.

 

[KenH]

man has the free will to respond to the gospel message

No, he doesn't. If salvation was left up man's alleged "free will", then not a single person would be saved.

 

[Silverhair]

"if thou continue in his goodness; meaning not the love, grace, and free favour of God, or the grace of the Spirit, a continuance in which no "if" is to be put upon; for such who are interested in the love of God always continue in it, and nothing can separate them from it; and such as have the graces of the Spirit implanted in them, as faith, hope, and love, can never lose them; these always remain in them, and they in the possession of them, though not always in the exercise of them; but the goodness of God in a church state is here meant, as the means of grace and comfort, the ministration of the word and ordinances; and the sense is, if thou dost not despise the riches of divine goodness in a church relation, if thou dost not abuse it, or walk unworthy of it, if thou abidest by it, and retainest a value for it, thou wilt still share the advantages of it:

otherwise thou also shall be cut off; from the good olive tree, the Gospel church state, into which the Gentiles were taken; and which, with respect to particular persons, may intend the act of excommunication by the church, expressed in Scripture by purging the old leaven, putting away the wicked person, withdrawing from such that are disorderly, and rejecting heretics, that is, from the communion of the church; and with respect to whole bodies and societies, an entire unchurching of them by removing the Gospel, and the ordinances of it; which threatening has been awfully fulfilled in many Gentile churches, in Asia, Africa, and Europe; and therefore may serve to awaken our fear, care, and caution, lest we should be treated in like manner."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Romans 11:22

Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

The bible. You seem to think these calvinist commentators are of more import than the bible, why is that?

 

[KenH]

Did you miss the part about we will all be judged for our decisions.

The elect are judged, in fact, have already been judged in Christ.

 

[KenH]

You know the one of whether we trust in Christ Jesus or not.

The teaching of salvation by decisionism that you are espousing is false and has no saving value whatsoever in it.

Salvation is in Christ by the sovereign grace of God ALONE and not based on anything in, or done, or thought by a person.

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 8:33-39 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written,

For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

It is not bringing a charge it is that they can be cut off for unbelief.

 

[KenH]

It is not bringing a charge it is that they can be cut off for unbelief.

God says that His elect are secure in Christ. You claim that God's elect are not secure in Christ.

I believe God, and what you teach is in opposition to what God has said in His Word. I believe God's Word, @Silverhair, and not your word.

 

[Silverhair]

The elect are judged, in fact, have already been judged in Christ.

Yes once a person trusts in Christ Jesus for their salvation they have been acquitted of their sins and had the righteousness of God accounted to them.

 

[Silverhair]

The teaching of salvation by decisionism that you are espousing is false and has no saving value whatsoever in it.

Salvation is in Christ by the sovereign grace of God ALONE and not based on anything in, or done, or thought by a person.

Then I guess the Holy Spirit got it wrong and should have checked with you calvinists first. We have to hear and believe the gospel then we are saved. By Gods' grace through faith.

 

[KenH]

The bible. You seem to think these calvinist commentators are of more import than the bible, why is that?

I like to read commentators who are faithful in teaching what has been passed down from the apostles.

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

 

[Silverhair]

God says that His elect are secure in Christ. You claim that God's elect are not secure in Christ.

I believe God, and what you teach is in opposition to what God has said in His Word. I believe God's Word, @Silverhair, and not your word.

I believe what the bible says don't you? What do you think [Romans 11:20-22] means? Those are not my words Ken those are Gods'.