No Bible Doctrine Called Sovereign Grace

[JonC]

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[Aaron]

"This does not mean that evil is good, which would be a contradiction. Sin is defined as a transgression of God's moral law, and when we say that God is the author of sin, we are saying that God is the metaphysical cause of a creature's transgression of God's moral law. God transgresses no moral law, since there is no moral law against what he does, but he causes the creature to transgress. Morality relates to moral law. But there is no moral law against sovereign metaphysical power. It is right and good for God to metaphysically cause evil, just because he does it, and because he has not declared himself wrong for doing it. It is wrong for man to morally commit evil, because God has declared man wrong for doing it, although it is God who metaphysically causes man to do it. Therefore, God remains righteous, and the sinner remains evil. The distinctions are clear. There is no paradox or contradiction, and also no biblical or logical basis for objection against the doctrine.

The law is a reflection of God's love and character, and He cannot deny Himself. It is impossible for God to lie.

Does this make God a tyrant? If the word simply means, "an absolute ruler,"59 then of course God is a tyrant. And since he is the sole moral authority, the very fact that he is a tyrant means that he ought to be one, that it is good and just for him to be one. The negative connotations of the word apply only to human beings, since no man is worthy of absolute authority or capable to wield it. But God is "an absolute ruler" – that is what it means to be God."

- Vincent Cheung, Systematic Theology

Tyranny is an oppressive rule, and a terror to the righteous. God is not a tyrant. Satan is.

 

[Aaron]

(quoting the carnal reasoning of Cheung) The necessary conclusion is that the doctrine that God is not the author of sin, or that it is blasphemy and heresy to say that he is, is itself the real blasphemy and heresy. Unless God is the author of sin and evil, he is not completely sovereign, and he is not God. Therefore, to deny that God is the author of sin and evil is to deny God.

This is an utterly faithless statement.

If we're talking about the origin of evil, it's not something we can wrap our minds around, because it's outside of time. If Christ's words are indicative, it began in Satan the Father of Lies.

There's a picture for us in the Creation narrative. God separated the light from the darkness. Light was created, but the darkness was already there uncreated, yet God names it, and acts upon it and with it.

Let's just suffice it it say that God is not the creator of evil, yet it was part of His will that it would appear.

 

[AustinC]

The law is a reflection of God's love and character, and He cannot deny Himself. It is impossible for God to lie.

Tyranny is an oppressive rule, and a terror to the righteous. God is not a tyrant. Satan is.

Who is righteous that they might not be in terror of God?
The Christian stands before God, declared righteous by substitutionary ransom of Jesus, Jesus continual prayer as our High Priest, and by the God given faith through which we are justified.

God is an absolute Sovereign King. What He says is done, without question. This is why Habakkuk's second prayer sends him to the watchtower to see God's response. Habakkuk thought he was doomed for questioning God.

*Habakkuk 1:12 through 2:1*
Are you not from everlasting, O Lord my God, my Holy One? We shall not die. O Lord, you have ordained them as a judgment, and you, O Rock, have established them for reproof. You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he? You make mankind like the fish of the sea, like crawling things that have no ruler. He brings all of them up with a hook; he drags them out with his net; he gathers them in his dragnet; so he rejoices and is glad. Therefore he sacrifices to his net and makes offerings to his dragnet; for by them he lives in luxury, and his food is rich. Is he then to keep on emptying his net and mercilessly killing nations forever?
I will take my stand at my watchpost and station myself on the tower, and look out to see what he will say to me, and what I will answer concerning my complaint.

 

[Marooncat79]

We are not in a neutral position in regards to sin. We are sinful wicked and evil bound for hell

But God, he chooses to save some

if God did not choose to save some then no one would be saved

 

[Aaron]

The whole idea of sovereign grace is ridiculous, and really, idiotic. This is not to say that folks who currently hold and teach this doctrine are idiots, but it does mean they have allowed themselves to forsake reasoning and logic and to follow someone from the near past who has invented this doctrine.

God can be sovereign in anything if he wants to be, but he does not want to be. Therefore he did not even use the word in his 66 books that make up our Bible. Yet, his sovereignty is the foundation of a whole religious movement that began in the 16th century. All the words in the scriptures have had to be redefined and managed and otherwise rendered insufficient in their presentation in order for this system to even make a little sense.

The fact that he is dealing with men concerning his gift of salvation through Christ in this age under the principle of grace and saying whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely is proof that his grace is not limited by his sovereignty, if by sovereignty one means he WILL not allow some (most) to believe him and come.

Whosoever will and limited atonement are mutually exclusive. They don't mean the same thing.

God is redefined by those who teach his actions on this earth among men are the expression of his sovereignty. It limits God to one principle and no others. It is one of the worse doctrines ever presented to men.

Well, let's break this down and talk about one point in what is better called "The Doctrines of Grace."

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13 KJV

What does that say to you?

 

[Silverhair]

We are not in a neutral position in regards to sin. We are sinful wicked and evil bound for hell

But God, he chooses to save some

if God did not choose to save some then no one would be saved

He has chosen to save those that freely trust in His son.

 

[Van]

The Sovereignty of God means He either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

The word Sovereignty is found in some translations, such as the NASB for malkû (H4437).

The idea is a reference to what the Sovereign controls, i.e. His Kingdom, His Royal House.

The claim the idea is "exhaustive determinism" is unbiblical nonsense, as the OP said a redefining of a concept.

 

[Silverhair]

Well, let's break this down and talk about one point in what is better called "The Doctrines of Grace."

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13 KJV

What does that say to you?

These are believers that Paul is addressing here so we know they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and as such are guided by Him. Paul has told them to strive to be Christ like in their daily walk. Php 2:3 Instead of being motivated by selfish ambition or vanity, each of you should, in humility, be moved to treat one another as more important than yourself. NET

 

[JD731]

The total absolute sovereignty of the Creator of the universe is a truth opposed by those who hate that they are not the "captain of their own fate" and are repulsed by God being the Potter and they being merely clay.


"God's will determines all the choices and circumstances of his creatures, so that nothing is up to man's "free will." In fact, because God is completely sovereign, man has no free will:

That is a totally non scriptural statement and contradicts the words of our Lord Jesus Christ in many places when he deals with why men will not be saved. Here are a couple.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not:

That would be a silly thing to say if it were predetermined that these men could not come to him and be saved.

This sovereign grace doctrine as it is presented by the Reformed is a denial of many words of our Lord Jesus and has no place in our conversation as it relates to salvation.

 

[DaveXR650]

The Sovereignty of God means He either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

I agree with Van here and I also think there is a difference between sovereignty and meticulous determinism. The problem is that with the above definition which I agree with, once God KNOWS something is going to happen in the future, even if you want to say he didn't determine it to be but that he just allowed freedom and knows what will be freely done by a creature - is it not still true that now that God knows for sure that such a thing will happen it MUST happen? Otherwise God would be wrong.

If you say God knows all the possible choices to be made and simply understands and has a plan to handle each choice then he by definition does not really KNOW the future but is simply the best player ever at chess. The idea of God having two wills is starting to look reasonable again. Edwards and Piper might be right.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree with Van here and I also think there is a difference between sovereignty and meticulous determinism. The problem is that with the above definition which I agree with, once God KNOWS something is going to happen in the future, even if you want to say he didn't determine it to be but that he just allowed freedom and knows what will be freely done by a creature - is it not still true that now that God knows for sure that such a thing will happen it MUST happen? Otherwise God would be wrong.

If you say God knows all the possible choices to be made and simply understands and has a plan to handle each choice then he by definition does not really KNOW the future but is simply the best player ever at chess. The idea of God having two wills is starting to look reasonable again. Edwards and Piper might be right.

God knows what man will freely do but God does not cause man to do it.God knows who will reject Him and who will trust in Him but He does not cause either to happen.

 

[Van]

I agree with Van here and I also think there is a difference between sovereignty and meticulous determinism. The problem is that with the above definition which I agree with, once God KNOWS something is going to happen in the future, even if you want to say he didn't determine it to be but that he just allowed freedom and knows what will be freely done by a creature - is it not still true that now that God knows for sure that such a thing will happen it MUST happen? Otherwise God would be wrong.

If you say God knows all the possible choices to be made and simply understands and has a plan to handle each choice then he by definition does not really KNOW the future but is simply the best player ever at chess. The idea of God having two wills is starting to look reasonable again. Edwards and Piper might be right.

The powers that be say views of Divine Knowledge cannot be discussed on this forum, because only the view they see as the Baptist view is allowed.

For example if you say God knowing the future sins we will commit requires that we commit those sins, or else God's knowledge is imperfect, then you are back to exhaustive determinism. But scripture, rather than the clever stories of men, says quite clearly things happen by "chance." Thus all arguments for exhaustive determinism are fallacious.

 

[DaveXR650]

God knows what man will freely do but God does not cause man to do it.God knows who will reject Him and who will trust in Him but He does not cause either to happen.

I agree with that but I know you would say that God influences all this by circumstances and conviction and so on. I remember fundamentalist preachers saying "If you feel any conviction, or see your need to come to Christ, don't put it off. Act immediately because you may never have another opportunity". And by that they meant both that you didn't know whether you would live and so on but also that the Holy Spirit may never act on you again. I can show you Calvinists like Bonar and Edwards who said this word for word and also guys like John R. Rice. There has to be a level of sovereignty in salvation or these guys would be wrong. And if we pray for people to get saved aren't we asking for sovereign intervention contrary to their will to be applied?

 

[DaveXR650]

. But scripture, rather than the clever stories of men, says quite clearly things happen by "chance." Thus all arguments for exhaustive determinism are fallacious.

I for sure think a lot happens by chance from our point of view. But sometimes in scripture God talks to us at our level for our benefit. If God says to someone "what did you do", it doesn't imply he really didn't know, it's just the only way for God to converse with us. It has to be at our level or else we can't converse. By the way, thanks for the heads up on the divine knowledge.

 

[KenH]

That is a totally non scriptural statement

More caterwauling against God being the Sovereign Creator of the universe, but here is what the Scriptures state:

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

 

[AustinC]

But scripture, rather than the clever stories of men, says quite clearly things happen by "chance."

Show us your scripture and how chance triumphs over God.

 

[Van]

Show us your scripture and how chance triumphs over God.

Done and done many times Sir as far as scripture saying things happen by chance. It you cannot do a word search, it is very easy to learn.

Did I say something "triumphs" over God? Nope so yet another disinformation post allowed for no good reason other than to hide truth.

If God allows things to happen by chance, that is according to His will, is consistent with His sovereign choice, and only triumphs over the fictions of foolish falseology folks.

 

[Van]

Psa 119:155
The wicked have no chance for deliverance, for they do not seek your statutes.

 

[KenH]

For those interested in why the wicked are far from salvation.

Salvation is far from the wicked: For they seek not thy statutes. - Psalms 119:155

"Salvation is far from the wicked,.... Christ, the author of salvation, is far from them: he was far from the unbelieving Jews, even though salvation was of them, and he, the Saviour, was among them; and he is far from all unconverted persons, as to knowledge of him, faith in him, or love to him; and from all those that seek for salvation elsewhere, let them make ever such pretences to religion: the Gospel of salvation, which they put away from them, as the Jews did in the times of Christ and the apostles; an experimental knowledge of salvation, a sense of need of it, and an application of it, are far from them; and the enjoyment of it in heaven, which, though nearer the saints than when they first believed, is far off from the wicked, and whose damnation is near.

...

for they seek not thy statutes; either to know them, or keep them: they seek not after God, to know him, his mind and will; the language of their hearts and actions is, "depart from us, we desire not the knowledge of thy ways"; no, not of life and salvation, and therefore it must be far from them."

- from John Gill's Bible commentary on Psalms 119:155