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Conditional Immortality of Souls
- Thread starter 37818
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I don't have enough context to know what to "prove," but the conditional mortality of humankind is quite obvious in the scriptures if you are open to seeing it.
One of the first images in the scriptures is the "tree of life" found in the garden. The fruit of the tree of life literally sustains life (see Genesis 3:22). Adam and Eve were denied access to the tree of life (Genesis 3:24) and death reigns until now. The tree of life will return in God's restored world, and humankind will eat of it again (Genesis 22:2, 14), allowing us to be sustained forever.
Beyond the image of the tree of life, the New Testament is full of explicit statements that eternal life is given by Jesus as a consequence of salvation, not an inherent human quality. Here are just a few examples:
One of the first images in the scriptures is the "tree of life" found in the garden. The fruit of the tree of life literally sustains life (see Genesis 3:22). Adam and Eve were denied access to the tree of life (Genesis 3:24) and death reigns until now. The tree of life will return in God's restored world, and humankind will eat of it again (Genesis 22:2, 14), allowing us to be sustained forever.
Beyond the image of the tree of life, the New Testament is full of explicit statements that eternal life is given by Jesus as a consequence of salvation, not an inherent human quality. Here are just a few examples:
- "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms on account of My name, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life." (Matthew 19:29)
- “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
- "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)
- “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)
- "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40)
- "Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life." (John 6:47)
- "...and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28)
- "The one who loves his life loses it, and the one who hates his life in this world will keep it to eternal life." (John 12:25)
- "...just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life." (John 17:2)
- "For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
- "Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost sinner Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life." (1 Timothy 1:16)
- "This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:25)
- "Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him." (1 John 3:15)
- "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." (1 John 5:11)
Sorry to disappoint, but you should rephrase your statement. You have encountered two people who believe something different from you because they are attempting to be led by what the scripture teaches, who are Baptists.
If you disagree with the explicit Bible passages I quoted as examples, please show me how I have misinterpreted the plain biblical language. As always, the Bible must be our authority, not tradition or popular opinion.
And for the record, I have never hidden my beliefs, so I am not "posing" as anything other than who I am.
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You are speaking of annihilationism. You can dress up a pig, out lipstick on it and call it a princess, but it is still a pig.
Your Bible verses do not teach annihilationism.
I am speaking of conditional mortality. While some people call it annihilationism, conditional mortality is a more exact name.
Scripture is not a pig. I came to my view because of the plain teaching of scripture, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, over the course of 20 years of paying attention to the scriptural teaching throughout the Bible.
I had been told that annihilationism was the mark of a cult, so I was quite averse to receiving the scriptural teaching. But after 20 years of seeing the consistent witness of scripture, I decided I had to be true to the plain teaching of scripture and endure the knee-jerk criticism of persons who won’t even discuss the issue.
They teach that eternal life only comes through Jesus as a consequence of salvation in Him. The alternative is death/perishing.
I’ve only listed 14 New Testament verses (out of many examples) and pointed out the image of the “Tree of Life.” Please demonstrate that eternal life is inherent in all people AND is not restricted to those in Christ.
And if eternal life is not restricted to those in Christ, why does the New Testament, especially in John’s writings, emphasize precisely that teaching so often?
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I never said scripture was a pig. I said that conditional mortality and annihilationism are the same thing. I used the analogy of dressing up a pig (annihilationism) with lipstick and calling it "conditional mortality" doesn't change the fact that it's still a pig (annihilationism).
Your position removes justice. It removes the call to repentance. It conjures up a myth that there is no consequence for sin since humans who rebelled against God without reconciliation simply cease and go to black. Your position encourages the wicked to increase their evil since there is no impunity to worry about.
So, dress up the pig all you want, but in the end it's still a pig.
If you want someone to agree with you, go to your local Kingdom Hall and note that the followers of Charles Taze Russell will gladly give you a round of applause.
Eternal punishment of the damned:
*Matthew 25:41-46*
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
*2 Thessalonians 1:5-10*
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
*Matthew 25:41-46*
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
*2 Thessalonians 1:5-10*
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
Sure. Their punishment is eternal. They are eternally dead. It is capital punishment.
Yes, they are destroyed eternally.
Isaiah 66:22-24
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth,
Which I make, will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So will your descendants and your name endure.
And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
“Then they will go out and look
At the corpses of the people
Who have rebelled against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be extinguished;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth,
Which I make, will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So will your descendants and your name endure.
And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
“Then they will go out and look
At the corpses of the people
Who have rebelled against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be extinguished;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”
The annihilated are eternally punished. Sorry, but that's laughable in its illogic (nonsense). Your use of Isaiah 66 as a prooftext is merely a doubling down on the nonsense as it provides no support to your assertion.
Yes. Their punishment is eternal. It is capital punishment.
There’s nothing illogical about it. I can’t help but notice you have not refuted my citation of the tree of life and the 14 sample verses that would contradict the view you are trying to uphold. Unless you believe the Bible hopelessly contradicts itself and we should only pay attention to a certain presuppositions about how TWO verses are interpreted. If you step away from mindless prooftexting and look at EVERYTHING taught in the Old and New Testaments, you can understand how to properly interpret the scriptures. That’s a basic principle of interpretation in case you don’t have any experience with it.
Not a prooftext, but directly providing a biblical parallel for the 2 Thessalonians passage you cited. They wicked are corpses (dead) in their destruction and they are separated from the presence of God and His glory. Just because YOU don’t understand how it supports it doesn’t mean it is irrelevant. From previous interactions, I thought that you had a level of theological knowledge and experience where I thought that you could grasp the significance of my citations. I even bolded the part I wanted you to notice. It is also significant that Jesus cited the last part of this passage, giving context to His teaching about “the worm” and the fire that is not quenched. The fly larvae have plenty to eat and they do not die — they become flies — and there is no one to quench the fire that burns the corpses. It is a picture of shame and death.
In addition to that, I could have also cited all of Jesus’ teaching on Gehenna, but it seems you are unwilling or incapable of engaging with even the small sample of scripture I have cited.
There is nothing to refute regarding God's word. The only refutation is in the idea that you imagine the verses support your nonsense (illogic) in asserting that annihilated souls are eternally punished. That's the equivalent of saying a fully swallowed hamburger is still being chewed.
The effects of the punishment are eternal. It’s clear you don’t understand biblical imagery of finality. For instance, Isaiah mentions the destruction of Edom. Its smoke is described as rising forever (Isaiah 34:10). The imagery of smoke rising forever is, in biblical terms, emphasizing the finality of the destruction.
In human terms, capital PUNISHMENT is a final punishment. It does not last forever, but only until the person is dead. The “second death” (Revelation 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8) is the destruction of the wicked. There is no coming back from that.
Of course, I never made a stupid claim like that, not matter how you have misunderstood me.
You are quite arrogant to claim I am “posing as a Baptist” because of my understanding of scripture when it is clear you don’t understand the first thing about the issues or scripture surrounding conditional immortality.
Instead of trying to win an argument, spend some time with the scripture and see if what I said is the true and plain meaning. Just read the Gospel of John for a start and notice what Jesus said contrasting eternal life with death/perishing.
If you want to have a conversation about it later, I’d be happy to discuss it with you.
The same metaphor is used in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in Revelation:
27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he had stood before Jehovah:
28 and he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the Plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the land went up as the smoke of a furnace. Gen 19
8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Rev 11:8
7 How much soever she glorified herself, and waxed wanton, so much give her of torment and mourning: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall in no wise see mourning.
8 Therefore in one day shall her plagues come, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire; for strong is the Lord God who judged her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who committed fornication and lived wantonly with her, shall weep and wail over her, when they look upon the smoke of her burning,
18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city? Rev 18
3 And a second time they say, Hallelujah. And her smoke goeth up for ever and ever. Rev 19
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Nothing will eliminate the power of the lost unbeliever's sin,
against an Eternally Holy God,
including the Eternal Fire of an endless Hell
that they will suffer throughout all Duration.
As long as God Lives, He will exact suffering and punishment,
for sin against Him.
"Perish" means = from all Goodness of God
(that they enjoy while alive on Earth.)
The Scriptures also describe a resurrection in which none but the wicked are spoken of.
The description here referred to is found in Rev. 20:11-15.
And note that the statement that
"death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire"
can mean nothing less than that all the occupants of death and Hades
were at this time cast into the lake of fire;
The translation of Dan. 12:2 by Tregelles
...
"And many from among the sleepers of the dust of the earth shall awake,
these that awake, shall be unto everlasting life,
but those- the rest of the sleepers who do not awake at this time-
shall be unto shame and everlasting contempt."
SIMMONS- THE FINAL STATES OF THE RIGHTEOUS AND OF THE WICKED
against an Eternally Holy God,
including the Eternal Fire of an endless Hell
that they will suffer throughout all Duration.
As long as God Lives, He will exact suffering and punishment,
for sin against Him.
"Perish" means = from all Goodness of God
(that they enjoy while alive on Earth.)
The Scriptures also describe a resurrection in which none but the wicked are spoken of.
The description here referred to is found in Rev. 20:11-15.
And note that the statement that
"death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire"
can mean nothing less than that all the occupants of death and Hades
were at this time cast into the lake of fire;
The translation of Dan. 12:2 by Tregelles
...
"And many from among the sleepers of the dust of the earth shall awake,
these that awake, shall be unto everlasting life,
but those- the rest of the sleepers who do not awake at this time-
shall be unto shame and everlasting contempt."
SIMMONS- THE FINAL STATES OF THE RIGHTEOUS AND OF THE WICKED
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When your view is so far fetched and genuinely unsupported in the Bible, I see no need to try win an argument that doesn't exist. However, your view falls in line with Charles Taze Russell and his followers. It is therefore not a Baptist distinctive or anything supported by any Baptist denomination I know of. Do you have a denomination that supports your notion?
Arrogance, thy name is AustinC.
You haven't engaged the biblical argument at all. You are merely acting as if you are the final arbiter of doctrine.
Historically, there have always been three basic interpretations of the fate of the wicked within Christendom. These views have waxed a waned throughout the last 2,000 years. In the 19th century, conditional mortality was nearly the dominant viewpoint. The horror of World War I had an effect on theology, slowly moving the favored interpretation to eternal conscious torment.
The first is universalism. There are some verses that can be interpreted to support this view, but the overwhelming amount of biblical evidence forces me to interpret those verses in line with the rest of revealed scripture. Therefore, I believe universalism to be false.
The second is eternal conscious torment. There are a few verses that be interpreted to support this view, but the overwhelming amount of biblical evidence -- especially the teachings of Jesus -- forces me to interpret those verses in line with the rest of revealed scripture. Moreover, the concept of the inherent immortality of humanity comes from Platonic philosophy, not from Hebrew through. Therefore, I believe eternal conscious torment to be false.
The third is conditional mortality. The vast majority of scripture plainly affirms this view, and all the "problem" verses can be easily reconciled to it. Therefore, I believe conditional mortality to be true.
The argument exists. A much more expansive argument can be made, but you won't even suggest an interpretation of John 3:16 that supports your view. It's just cowardice and arrogant ignorance to claim an argument doesn't exist. You just haven't bothered to check.
I'll help you do your homework.
What is conditional mortality?
Here's a website resource as well.
That's a nice smear. My views are nothing like JWs, although they do understand the basics of conditionalism.
Lots of things are part of Christianity and not exclusive to Baptists. Baptists are supposed to be led by the Bible.
The 1925 Baptist Faith & Message does not take a stand between conditional mortality or eternal conscious torment (reflecting the views of many in the 19th century), although the 1963 and 2000 BF&M take the eternal torment position.
Denomination? No, but a number of Christian theologians through history have held to it, including Baptists theologians like E. Earle Ellis, who taught at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth at the pleasure of Paige Patterson.
So there's an argument that exists, even though you are totally ignorant of it. Now, go be a Berean and study the issue for yourself.
Call me names all you want. No Baptist holds your annihilationism. It is the teaching of unorthodox fringe Christian groups. You decide where you lie in that space.Arrogance, thy name is AustinC.
You haven't engaged the biblical argument at all. You are merely acting as if you are the final arbiter of doctrine.
Historically, there have always been three basic interpretations of the fate of the wicked within Christendom. These views have waxed a waned throughout the last 2,000 years. In the 19th century, conditional mortality was nearly the dominant viewpoint. The horror of World War I had an effect on theology, slowly moving the favored interpretation to eternal conscious torment.
The first is universalism. There are some verses that can be interpreted to support this view, but the overwhelming amount of biblical evidence forces me to interpret those verses in line with the rest of revealed scripture. Therefore, I believe universalism to be false.
The second is eternal conscious torment. There are a few verses that be interpreted to support this view, but the overwhelming amount of biblical evidence -- especially the teachings of Jesus -- forces me to interpret those verses in line with the rest of revealed scripture. Moreover, the concept of the inherent immortality of humanity comes from Platonic philosophy, not from Hebrew through. Therefore, I believe eternal conscious torment to be false.
The third is conditional mortality. The vast majority of scripture plainly affirms this view, and all the "problem" verses can be easily reconciled to it. Therefore, I believe conditional mortality to be true.
The argument exists. A much more expansive argument can be made, but you won't even suggest an interpretation of John 3:16 that supports your view. It's just cowardice and arrogant ignorance to claim an argument doesn't exist. You just haven't bothered to check.
I'll help you do your homework.
What is conditional mortality?
Here's a website resource as well.
That's a nice smear. My views are nothing like JWs, although they do understand the basics of conditionalism.
Lots of things are part of Christianity and not exclusive to Baptists. Baptists are supposed to be led by the Bible.
The 1925 Baptist Faith & Message does not take a stand between conditional mortality or eternal conscious torment (reflecting the views of many in the 19th century), although the 1963 and 2000 BF&M take the eternal torment position.
Denomination? No, but a number of Christian theologians through history have held to it, including Baptists theologians like E. Earle Ellis, who taught at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth at the pleasure of Paige Patterson.
So there's an argument that exists, even though you are totally ignorant of it. Now, go be a Berean and study the issue for yourself.
The one who started the accusations apparently doesn’t like to be called out for his arrogance. He’s also scared to look at the Bible.
False. I know quite a few.
I’m not “in that space” at all. I am with Jesus. Where are you?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Arrogance, thy name is AustinC.
You haven't engaged the biblical argument at all. You are merely acting as if you are the final arbiter of doctrine.
Historically, there have always been three basic interpretations of the fate of the wicked within Christendom. These views have waxed a waned throughout the last 2,000 years. In the 19th century, conditional mortality was nearly the dominant viewpoint. The horror of World War I had an effect on theology, slowly moving the favored interpretation to eternal conscious torment.
The first is universalism. There are some verses that can be interpreted to support this view, but the overwhelming amount of biblical evidence forces me to interpret those verses in line with the rest of revealed scripture. Therefore, I believe universalism to be false.
The second is eternal conscious torment. There are a few verses that be interpreted to support this view, but the overwhelming amount of biblical evidence -- especially the teachings of Jesus -- forces me to interpret those verses in line with the rest of revealed scripture. Moreover, the concept of the inherent immortality of humanity comes from Platonic philosophy, not from Hebrew through. Therefore, I believe eternal conscious torment to be false.
The third is conditional mortality. The vast majority of scripture plainly affirms this view, and all the "problem" verses can be easily reconciled to it. Therefore, I believe conditional mortality to be true.
The argument exists. A much more expansive argument can be made, but you won't even suggest an interpretation of John 3:16 that supports your view. It's just cowardice and arrogant ignorance to claim an argument doesn't exist. You just haven't bothered to check.
I'll help you do your homework.
What is conditional mortality?
Here's a website resource as well.
That's a nice smear. My views are nothing like JWs, although they do understand the basics of conditionalism.
Lots of things are part of Christianity and not exclusive to Baptists. Baptists are supposed to be led by the Bible.
The 1925 Baptist Faith & Message does not take a stand between conditional mortality or eternal conscious torment (reflecting the views of many in the 19th century), although the 1963 and 2000 BF&M take the eternal torment position.
Denomination? No, but a number of Christian theologians through history have held to it, including Baptists theologians like E. Earle Ellis, who taught at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth at the pleasure of Paige Patterson.
So there's an argument that exists, even though you are totally ignorant of it. Now, go be a Berean and study the issue for yourself.
The Harlot daughters haven't come far enough out of The Great Whore.