DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
To avoid hijacking another thread, I would like to continue this discussion with George's permission on it's own thread.
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Can You Come to Christ on Your Own
- Thread starter DaveXR650
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To avoid hijacking another thread, I would like to continue this discussion with George's permission on it's own thread.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I'm quoting John R. Rice from his book "False Doctrines" page 275 in the chapter on "Hyper-Calvinism"
"God...now commandeth all men everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:30). Can anyone accuse God of commanding people to do what He has made it impossible for them to do?"
Can that be squared with " No man can come to Christ, unless the Father draws him". John 6:44 ?
It seems to me that you can go several ways with this.
1. John Rice is correct.
2. The Calvinists who say you have a group of people who are elect and they alone are involved in any call to faith and
repentance.
3. It is legitimate and God does call on everyone to repent and they can properly be held responsible because the problem is
is with the depravity of the person themself and with their affections and will.
To me, number 3 is the only way it makes sense. What do you with John 6:44? (Or the whole of John 6?)
"God...now commandeth all men everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:30). Can anyone accuse God of commanding people to do what He has made it impossible for them to do?"
Can that be squared with " No man can come to Christ, unless the Father draws him". John 6:44 ?
It seems to me that you can go several ways with this.
1. John Rice is correct.
2. The Calvinists who say you have a group of people who are elect and they alone are involved in any call to faith and
repentance.
3. It is legitimate and God does call on everyone to repent and they can properly be held responsible because the problem is
is with the depravity of the person themself and with their affections and will.
To me, number 3 is the only way it makes sense. What do you with John 6:44? (Or the whole of John 6?)
Yes:
30 the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, Acts 17
'All anthropos', as opposed to Matthew 10:5-6; Matthew 15:24, intending not only Jews but also Gentiles.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
@kyredneck . You still have the question Rice brought up, whether it is now including gentiles as well as Jews, as to whether this command by God proves that men can come to Christ for salvation on their own, without the help of the Holy Spirit. Verses like John 6:44 and others seem to indicate that men cannot come to Christ on their own, in their "natural" state.
I tend to believe that in our fallen, natural state we cannot come to Christ for salvation or have saving faith in Christ without a work of the Holy Spirit. I think there are plenty of instances where Jesus talks about spiritual blindness and deafness to where it would be logical to assume this.
I tend to believe that in our fallen, natural state we cannot come to Christ for salvation or have saving faith in Christ without a work of the Holy Spirit. I think there are plenty of instances where Jesus talks about spiritual blindness and deafness to where it would be logical to assume this.
Of course it doesn't. There's more scripture other than Jn 6:44 that refutes that.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
God commanded the Hebrew people to keep the OT Law perfectly, knowing the only person who would keep it perfectly would be Jesus.
So I guess you have to decide whether God knowing no one would keep the OT Law is the same as saying no one is able to keep the OT Law.
Applying that thinking to the gospel.. Does God knowing no one will come to Christ for salvation without the intervention of God Holy Spirit the same as saying no one is able to obey the command to repent and believe the gospel.
peace to you
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I think it is the same. And in the case of keeping the commandments and obeying the law and in repenting and believing the gospel it is a stronger type of "can't" than just a basic unwillingness. This is from Andrew Fuller: "Those who were under the dominion of malignity and evil COULD NOT speak peaceably; and those who have eyes full of adultery CANNOT cease from sin.
Hence also the following language - How CAN you being evil, speak good things? The natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, nor CAN he know them. The carnal mind is enmity against God, and is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN be. Those who are in the flesh CANNOT please God. No one CAN come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him".
So while it is truly a situation of "can't" it is not a natural inability which would give an excuse but an inability due to an inclination which we are responsible for.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Reference from:
DEFINITIONS OF DOCTRINE
VOLUME II
SIN SALVATION SERVICE
CLAUDE DUVAL COLE
In Rom. 8:28 this call is said to be
"...according to his purpose"
. And II Tim. 1:9 is to the same effect:
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
THE NECESSITY OF THE EFFECTUAL CALL
Human depravity---the condition of fallen human nature makes a special and supernatural call necessary for the conversion of the sinner. Man by nature has his understanding darkened by sin, his heart is hard, and his mind is enmity against God.
If the sinner loved God and understood the gospel, he would at once, on hearing the gospel, lovingly and gladly respond to the good news about Christ as the Saviour. But he must undergo a change of mind and heart before he will receive Christ as Lord and Saviour. And this change is not self-wrought, but God-wrought. Paul told Timothy to preach in the hope that
"...God peradventure will give them repentance
(change of mind)
to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will,"
(IITim. 2:25-26).
This special call of the Holy Spirit is necessary because the gospel call--the word only--is not sufficient for the conversion of the lost man.
"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost. . . ."
(IThess. 1:4-5).
Bunyan says "I believe that, to effectual calling, the Holy Ghost must accompany the word of the gospel, and that with mighty power." The gospel is suitable and sufficient as the means of conversion, but there must also be an agent with power to effect it. There must be the Divine workman as well as Divine equipment. The word is said to be the sword of the Spirit. In the call that goes unheeded, we have the gospel and the preacher; in the effectual call we have the gospel, the preacher, and the Holy Spirit. And it is the Holy Spirit who makes the gospel effective in the conversion of the sinner.
THE REASON FOR THE EFFECTUAL CALL
The effectual call; the call of the Holy Spirit; the call that secures salvation; in every case is made in pursuance of God's eternal purpose. In Rom. 8:28 this call is said to be
"...according to his purpose"
. And II Tim. 1:9 is to the same effect:
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
Salvation is not an accident; it is not a chance happening; but the coming to pass of God's eternal purpose in Christ. The effectual call is the divine act by which the foreknown are brought into a saved state. It is the inaugural of the elect; the induction into saintship. Salvation is of the Lord, and every Christian should ascribe his conversion to the work of the Holy Spirit. Every Christian is a God-made man, and therefore, a grace-made man, since he has not merited salvation. It is God who has made us to differ from the lost..."
Dave G
Well-Known Member
To me, Mr. Rice did not understand what Romans 1, John 3:19-20 and other things that the Lord has said, details about our fallen condition.
Amen.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Not speaking as a self-professed "Calvinist", I see that the Bible does indeed teach an internal "call", my friend.
God's elect unerringly come to Christ when He calls...
And apart from that, no person would come.
The Holy Spirit only "calls", spiritually and through His word, those that the Lord has chosen to save.
All others who hear the word of God are partaking of an outward call, and will not heed it from the heart ( John 8:43-47 ).
They will not believe all of God's words, no matter if they are "logical" or not.
They will not come to someone they hate, from the heart.
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Dave, I was at a memorial service for a man who had died from a hit and run while he was in a walk. The man had grown up in the church and gone through all the training to be a Christian. He went to a conservative Bible school. At the memorial his parents and siblings talked. You could tell which persons were Christian and who weren't. The Christians spoke of hope and read God's word. The non-Christians talked of temporary issues with no hope for life after death.
The young man who died was a musical and scholarly genius. God gave him gifts that few possess. He took those gifts and turned his back on God. He denied Christ and declared himself a secular humanist who devoted himself to equity. By all accounts he did many good things while intensifying his anger at his Creator. He had heard the word of God all his days in his Christian family, yet he never heard God...or at best...he had denied his Savior.
When his secular humanist friends spoke there was no hope. Nothing but remorse for a life ended, by there words, far too early. There was bitter weeping (as there should be when there is no hope).
It was interesting to hear the crowd give ascent to the godlessness of humanism, yet verbally respond against Christianity. There was an actual hatred present when Christ was spoken. It was one of the saddest memorial services I have ever attended.
Unless God intercedes, man will never bow to God as Lord and Savior
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
The question too often seems skewed to ignore the realities. No, no one can himself come to Christ. But this would be an impossibility, for Christ has already come, the word has already gone out.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
It almost sounds like the question being answered is, Can a man not know he is a sinner in need without God doing more than he has already done in sending his Son to die for them and others to preach the good news?
It seems that scripture assumes this is sufficient, and that a man does know. Paul’s preaching and teaching in Athens (Acts 17:16ff) in particular seems to assume this.
It seems that scripture assumes this is sufficient, and that a man does know. Paul’s preaching and teaching in Athens (Acts 17:16ff) in particular seems to assume this.
...the father of 'duty-faith'. Go figure.
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
It seems like you have carefully examined his theology and found it wanting. But I don't accept "go figure" as an answer, even on this board.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
That's actually a very good point.
You don't see the contradiction of Fullerism's 'duty-faith' with what you quoted of Fuller? It's the very contradiction embodied in this question:
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
No. Because he deals with both in the same work. But you have to read it. I'm not saying you have to agree with him. But Fullers stature is enough that just blowing him off is not really an option. If you have some rational argument make your case.
Is this not the gist of the OP?
The Association of Historic Baptists » • The Duty-Faith And Free-Offer Issue
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