Featured Can You Come to Christ on Your Own

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Putting aside mental framing and confirmation bias, what about it? What are you reading into that?

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Putting aside mental framing and confirmation bias, what about it? What are you reading into that?

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Putting aside mental framing and confirmation bias, what about it? What are you reading into that?

 

What does it say?
To whom does the Father give to come to Christ?
How is that giving effected?

 

What I'm trying to say is that the verses you quoted as Calvinists' proof-texts don't say the things they read into them.
We must observe verses in context and only conclude what they say, not what they seem to say.

Everything in the gospel of John about sheep, sheep hearing the voice, the Father's sheep, and those of the Father's being given to Christ, in context, simply fits the OT narrative we are all familiar with and which Christ himself tells the Jews, that is:

The Jews who already believed the light of the OT scriptures were already believers in the Father, and hence his sheep. It is to those that the Father reveals the Son. The end.

 

George I have heard every type how to get saved on here since I've joined but I'm not going to argue the different points as I have my own and I'm sure others do too, yourself included, I do believe this is the perfect answer and it runs from Genesis to Revelation... WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED?... "WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE BUT WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE"... Brother Glen

 

No one said otherwise. That doesn't mean we get to redefine what a "work" is in the scriptures; and free will faith, far from being categorized as a "work" by Paul, is rather set in contra-distinction to work:

 

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

In context, the Son is saying that unless you yield to the Father's drawing through the OT scriptures, you cannot know the Son.

The end.

 

Only in your imagination. I'm loaded for bear when it comes to scripture (in lieu of other men's opinions).

FYI, I wasn't using the term 'mugwump' in a derogatory manner toward you, it's actually a position that HankD endeared to me. In his words:

"This is going to be self centered.
I have a question at the end?

I am not a calvinist.
I am not an arminianist.

I am a mugwump. Mug on one side of the fence wump on the other - someone else gave me that name - don't remember who.

I tried being a calvinist every other day then an arminian on the off days.
Didn't work well for me.

Personally I cant agree with all of the traditional details of either systematic theology although I was educated in a Bible school of mixed theological points of view.

Although coming (or driven to Christ) for me was a battle . I have said many times before, I am now an "easy-believer", because believing on Jesus is the easiest thing I know how to do to, in fact its second nature (maybe first nature?) to me."

As I said, Hank, a self-professed mugwump, was one of my favorites here on the BB. I guess 'Christlike' (with a sense of humor) would describe him pretty well.

If 'mugwump' suits you Dave, then own it. There's no shame in it. IMO, there'll be plenty of mugwumps in heaven.

 

ROFL! Who're you talking about Dave? Are you being derogatory? Lol...

 

Be more specific. You're still dancing around the edges. Stand up for the theology you see in scripture. What some dead dude believed won't be what God cares about when we meet Him. It's time you actually speak the theology you find in scripture.

As for me, I'm confident in scripture and what it says. If saints of old believe the same as I do, it only serves to confirm the observations I see in scripture.

You seem quite well read in other person's opinions. How about your Bible. What does God's word tell you?

 

Toss out Calvinism as that's irrelevant. What does the Bible say?

You declare that "salvation is by faith in Christ. Those who come to Christ by faith are saved."

Now, what does the Bible say? Does it agree with what you have asserted?

*Ephesians 2:4-9*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

What I notice is that our salvation is by God's grace, which happened even while we were still dead in sins. I notice that faith is a gift given as an effect of God's grace being given.

What I also notice is your projection as an accusation that somehow my observation of Ephesians 2 may be Pharisaic or Gnostic. What do you think. Is my observation of the text coming from some source outside of the text, like a Pharisee or a Gnostic would do.

Dave, thanks for sharing your theology. It's the first time you've actually been plain and forthright about what you believe. Clearly, you and I disagree on what Ephesians 2 is saying.

 

Opinions… everyone has them.

 

Try reading your Bible