George Antonios
Well-Known Member
So you're proving that "believing" is a "work". Good job.
But by that logic you've also unwittingly just "proved" something else:
that Jesus told people that they are saved by works. Good job...
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Can You Come to Christ on Your Own
- Thread starter DaveXR650
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So you're proving that "believing" is a "work". Good job.
But by that logic you've also unwittingly just "proved" something else:
that Jesus told people that they are saved by works. Good job...
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
But I hope you're not saying that it is a test of orthodoxy to know this. This is my problem with some of the Calvinists on here. You can't have it both ways. If your salvation really is all of God then it IS all of God. You will not be conscious of any of it. All you are conscious of is that you believe it. You may not even be able to give an exact time or share a conversion experience. At some point you realize you do believe this. And then: someone challenges you and is more interested in your understanding of the order of salvation and the fact that in some way you really didn't decide to believe than they are in the fact that you believe.
They have taken this higher knowledge and elevated it to primary status. I think that's a big mistake. I'm not saying you are doing this but some on here are. Are you really not satisfied with the testimony of someone who simply says they believe in Christ or they trust in Christ for their salvation? What is they said they decided it was in their best interest? Jonathan Edwards used to point that out to people in his sermons.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
"this is of the operation of God, which he himself works in men; it is not of themselves, it is the pure gift of God:
"...This, as a principle, is purely God's work; as it is an act, or as it is exercised under the influence of divine grace, it is man's act: "that ye believe"; the object of it is Christ, as sent by the Father, as the Mediator between God and men, as appointed by him to be the Saviour and Redeemer; and believing in Christ, is believing in God that sent him."
John 6:29 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Yes, in context, rhetorical, highlighting the impossibility of man actually doing the works of God.
“Then they inquired, ‘What must we do to perform the works of God?’” (see John 6:28)
One who believes he can do the works of God apart from God is fooling himself. However, it is possible that God will do his works through a man whose faith is in His Son. Then grace may abound.
So, Paul says, “But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not in vain. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me” (1 Corinthians 15:10).
This takes us right back to the no-room-to-boast principle. Free will faith is no boast at all. There is simply nothing to boast about, except in the Lord. In him we boast, for to him belongs all the glory.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
It isn’t just the notion that faith is actually a work, but the accusation that it is for those who surrender to Christ of their own free will, and further that it must therefore be some sort of boast. For someone who has experienced it, the notion is simply ludicrous. The only possible boast is in the Lord who “saved a wretch like me.”
Just to put a cap on it, the doctrine of free will faith includes the realization that this free will to choose Jesus or not is given by God just like everything else one has. There is no boasting, except in the Lord. There is no difference between the Calvinist and the non-Calvinist on this point. And, really, that is the point.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
The Bible Teaches how God Saves a soul.
What is your understanding of the lost soul being "dead in trespasses and sins"?
...or God being the One Who Quickens, or makes alive?
...or Faith being the Gift of God " not of yourselves"?
Can a leopard change its spots?
"It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."
God uses the INSTRUMENTALITY of His Word and saves through the preaching of the Gospel.
Jesus is the Savior.
The Bible reveals what Goes does in salvation and that belief is the Result of His Work and that of His Son and The Holy Spirit.
You must be Born again.
"decided it was in their best interest?" Is not the way of salvation according to The Book, and certainly not one of several "ways".
Jonathan Edwards could point anything and God must still Open the Heart.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Faith is the Gift of God or a lost soul has no Spiritual "faith" of their own that can add any merit to the Work of Salvation.
Salvation is by the Work of God.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Non sequitur.
You are free to not explain scripture. This is your choice.
You can also make unsupported assertions and then complain when I ask you to support your assertion. You can act incredulous when I share the very scripture you pointed at and then ask how the verses prove your point, but if you cannot prove your point from the verses you picked, it can only mean that you have no biblical support or that you cannot explain it, or prove it, but you're going to dig in your heals and assertion it anyway.
The simple point of the matter is that your assertion places man as the cause agent who effects God to save you. My assertion is that God is the cause agent who saves by grace and gives faith. Man is effected by this and therefore believes.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
No, this is not possible.
Any "faith" a lost soul has is flesh and dead, Spiritually.
No, "free will to choose Jesus or not" is not given by God.
God either Gives Repentance and Faith, or the lost soul has none and no "will" other than that which is Spiritually dead and TO SIN, because they love darkness rather than light.
God's Command is to Repent.
Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.
- From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”
Matthew 4:17
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
Agreed. Now would you be of the belief that being born again comes before someone believes and repents and how much would it bother you if someone took the opposite view?
I disagree, just on a practical level, you think it's in your best interest or you don't do anything. I believe that the Holy Spirit convinces you that it is in your best interest and makes Christ attractive and makes the gospel beautiful and appealing as Edwards might say.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Not sound Doctrine, for a Spiritually dead sinner to "quicken" themselves to Eternal Life. The Bible does not Teach "a dead rock to a Prince" Evolution.
Beyond The Doctrines of Grace, this ACTIVITY of GOD in SALVATION can be Taught in The Manifold Wisdom and Whole Counsel of God, in the entire Bible.
BOOK II.
OF THE ACTS AND WORKS OF GOD
Of the Internal Acts of God, and of his Decrees in general † Of the Special Decrees of God, particularly of Election † Of the Rejection of some Angels and some Men † Of the Union of the Elect to God † Of Adoption as an Immanent Act † Of the Everlasting Council † Of the Everlasting Covenant of Grace † Of the Part the Father took in the Covenant † Of the Part the Son of God took in the Covenant † Of Christ as the Covenant Head of the Elect † Of Christ the Surety of the Covenant † Of the Love of God † Of Christ the Testator of the Covenant † Of the Concern the Spirit has in the Covenant † Of the Properties of the Covenant † Of the Complacency and Delight the Divine Persons had in each other from everlasting
~~~~~~
BOOK III.
OF THE EXTERNAL WORKS OF GOD
Of Creation in General † Of the Creation of Angels † Of the Creation of Man † Of the Providence of God † Of the Confirmation of the Elect Angels, Of the Fall of the Non-elect Angels † Of the Honour and Happiness of Man in Innocence † Of the Law given to Adam, and Covenant with him † Of the Sin and Fall of our First Parents † Of the Nature, Aggravations, and sad Effects of the Sin of Man † Of the Imputation of Adam's Sin to all his Posterity † Of the Corruption of Human Nature † Of Actual Sins and Transgressions † Of the Punishment of Sin
~~~~~~
BOOK IV.
OF THE ACTS OF THE GRACE OF GOD
TOWARDS AND UPON HIS ELECT IN TIME.
Of the Manifestation and Administration of the Covenant of Grace † Of the Covenant of Grace in the Patriarchal State † Of the Covenant of Grace under the Mosaic Dispensation † Of the Covenant of Grace in the Times of David and the Prophets † Of the Abrogation of the Old Covenant † Of the Law of God † Of the Gospel
~~~~~~
BOOK V.
OF THE GRACE OF CHRIST IN HIS STATES OF HUMILIATION AND EXALTATION, AND IN THE OFFICES EXERCISED BY HIM IN THEM.
Of the Incarnation of Christ † Of Christ's State of Humiliation † Of the Active Obedience of Christ † Of the Passive Obedience of Christ † Of the Burial of Christ † Of the Resurrection of Christ † Of the Ascension of Christ † Of the Session of Christ at the Right Hand of God † Of the Prophetic Office of Christ † Of the Priestly Office of Christ † Of the Intercession of Christ † Of Christ's Blessing his People as a Priest † Of the Kingly Office of Christ † Of the Spiritual Reign of Christ
~~~~~~
BOOK VI.
OF THE BLESSINGS OF GRACE, AND THE DOCTRINES OF IT.
Of Redemption by Christ † Of the Causes of Redemption † Of the Objects of Redemption † Of Scriptures favouring Universal Redemption † Of the Satisfaction of Christ † Of Propitiation, Atonement, and Reconciliation † Of Pardon of Sin † Of Justification † Of Adoption † Of the Liberty of the Sons of God † Of Regeneration † Of Effectual Calling † Of Conversion † Of Sanctification † Of the Perseverance of the Saints
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
They would be A.) Infinitely Incorrect, unsound, and in the position of,
B). being deceived and lost,
or C.) deceiving others to another Gospel/ a "decision"
without conviction, repentance, or Regeneration, i.e., without GOD.
This is the opposite of How God is to be Worshipped.
...
"decided it was in their best interest"
and
are two different things, unless you are still leaving the lost sinner to their flesh
to "decide", after being "convinced" by The Holy Spirit.
...
The Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
in that Effectual Call, by The Holy Spirit,
in the beginning of CONVERSION, by The WORD of GOD.
Then, in THE EFFECTUAL CALL,
the Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
to the extent that
God GRANTS them REPENTANCE
and FAITH to BELIEVE in The GOSPEL,
The Power of God unto SALVATION,
and The GODHEAD's ELECTION and EFFECTUAL CALLING
HAVE SUCCEEDED PERFECTLY.
THE BELIEVER is SEALED by The HOLY SPIRIT.
This is The NEW BIRTH, REGENERATION,
and JUSTIFICATION.
...
The ORDER of, "How God Saves souls", is here:
The Triune Godhead Elected.
"whom He did Predestinate" Romans 8:30
The Triune Godhead Effectually Calls
"them He Calls..." Romans 8:28, 30.
The Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
in that Effectual Call, by The Holy Spirit,
in the beginning of CONVERSION, by The WORD of GOD.
Romans 3:10
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"
Ephesians 1:13a "In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
The Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
to the extent that
God GRANTS them REPENTANCE
and FAITH to BELIEVE in The GOSPEL,
The Power of God unto SALVATION,
Ephesians 2:1
"And you hath he quickened,
who were dead in trespasses and sins;"
Acts 20:21
"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,
repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."
Romans 1:16
" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
for it is the power of God unto salvation
to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
and The GODHEAD's ELECTION and EFFECTUAL CALLING
HAVE SUCCEEDED PERFECTLY.
30 "Then I was by Him, as One brought up with Him:
and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him"
THE BELIEVER is SEALED by The HOLY SPIRIT.
Ephesians 1:13b "...in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were Sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,"
This is The NEW BIRTH, REGENERATION,
and JUSTIFICATION.
Romans 8:30c "whom He called, them He also Justified:"
GLORIFICATION is in the Future in man's view.
Romans 8:30c "and whom He Justified, them He also Glorified."
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
This is what happens when I did what you asked and expressed 1 simple direct theological truth. You went on the attack using verses that said what I had said, supposedly as rebuttal and then demanded that I defend my misinterpretation of verses that I had not even mentioned. This is just unreal.
Your ranting on "man being the cause agent" simply shows your bizarre tendency to elevate the order of salvation to primary status. I said nothing but that you come by faith. You cannot ever think about anything but this higher understanding that you think you have. Would you have corrected Paul when he answered the Philippian jailer.
My original quote, in which I indicated that the second choice - the the Holy Spirit enlightened them... and so on. So from that you go on this rant about man being the cause.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
That response appears to ignore the context and content of the post; or else assumes Paul was lying in the verse quoted, or was a lost soul, or both.
Recommendation: Respond to what was in the post.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
So. You are saying that if someone does not believe that you are born again first, before having faith, that such a person is lost?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I'm trying to flesh this out. When it says above, "to the extent that", do you think that means that it is in the level of intensity of the understanding of conviction or does it mean more as in the idea they are born again at that point. The reason I ask this is that the WCF seems to be I think deliberately ambiguous on making that claim and they never come out and say that the quickening or enlightenment of the Holy Spirit is equivalent to being born again. Or maybe I over looked it.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
That post claims God’s command is to repent, yet the very verse quoted indicates God’s command is to both repent and believe. Just pointing out the apparent redaction. Why abridge God’s word?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Their testimony is that of simply being purely ignorant
of The Revelation of God to mankind, the Bible,
whether saved in spite of what they "believe",
or lost.
This is the opposite of How God is to be Worshipped.
They would be A.) Infinitely Incorrect, unsound, and in the position of,
of simply being purely ignorant
of The Revelation of God to mankind, the Bible
and if they can't be Taught, potentially of
B). being deceived and lost,
or C.) deceiving others to another Gospel/ a "decision"
without conviction, repentance, or Regeneration, i.e., without GOD.
That being said, it is entirely possible for an unteachable soul to be lost.
That is the best explanation for people
not being able to Spiritually grasp "the things of God",
as plain as, to understand "dead".
Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the sons of God".
If a preacher, or anyone else "believes" another Gospel, without Conviction of their sins, being Given Repentance and Spiritually Saving Faith from God and REGENERATED, by The New Birth, what do you expect?
That they will be a Bible Expert?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I think you make a good point because the Westminster Confession of Faith say "When God converts a sinner and translates him into a state of grace.... he enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good".
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