Do we have the power of the HS to save them?
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What do you guys think of Author Pinks handling of "Duty Faith"?
- Thread starter Alan Gross
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So the blood shed doesnt have the power to save all?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
They actually seemed to really have it together with a deeper understanding of how things really work than we have. There are "tensions" or "paradoxes" or "logical difficulties" for our human minds in scripture that cannot be resolved without going to an absurd extreme with a man-made system. And one of these is that we are responsible to, when we hear God's directions for salvation or whatever, to obey with all our might. And so they preached that from whatever passage they were in or whatever topic they were on. But if you study scripture you cannot deny that there is good, really good, evidence that God knows every single thing that is going to happen and is in control over it. And He reserves the right to manipulate or direct people and events any way and to any extent He wants. And that he has already determined all this from way before you existed. And they preached that too.
They did not see any need to resolve these difficulties in order to preach what people needed to hear. They did not start saying "Well, if it's all predetermined why call for repentance?" or say "these people repented after I preached therefore I must have convinced them to do that".
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Dead in sins does not mean dead. They can still hear and respond to the gospel message.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I understand what you are saying and agree God is sovereign and omniscient so He knows all that will happen but where we part is that for the Calvinist, God has to control all that happens but then you balk at the suggestion that your idea of God controlling all things means He is ultimately responsible for all sin.
God is sovereign so for someone to suggest that God can't allow for free will is somewhat puzzling. Is God sovereign or is He not, the Calvinist has to make up their mind on this.
Curious as to what you mean by your comment "a deeper understanding of how things really work". Are you suggesting that the bible is to deep for the average person to understand the means of salvation or the grace of God or consequences of sin? That is starting to sound like Gnostic philosophy.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
No we do not have the power of the Holy Spirit to save them but they do have access to the Holy Spirit to save them.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Im not here to talk about all that. I merely made it clear that I agree with Pink on the OP comments. Faith and Repentance is only for the regenerate, they are evidences that Christ has saved them. The non elect who Christ did not die for, are married to the Law, and there is no repentance, you either keep the law perfectly or you damned.
Now as far as preaching the Gospel is concerned, when its preached there may be elect and non elect in the audience, thats Gods business, we just preach the Truth.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
They took what the scripture said and did it, without having to resolve it first. You are invited to come to Christ and if you do he will save you. You are responsible to do this. Without the Holy Spirit's creative work you will not come. Christ has already died once and had in mind who he was going to save. All these are true and do not have to be resolved. I can't in my human mind fit all these together into a system. But I can understand each of them if I consider them separately. That's what they did.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Its limited to the Elect. Gods ability isn't even an issue, its His Purpose, Gods ability is governed by His Purpose, His Wisdom. So The Blood has the Power, but not the purpose to save the non elect, you understand ?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Yes it does mean dead, dead to God, and no men not of God cannot hear Gods words Spiritually, else Jesus dont know what He talking about here to these men Jn 8:43,47
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Who says
Oh they come knocking right? Here I am Lord, I’m here to get saved…wrap me up, I’m your gift!
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You are invited to come to Christ and if you do he will save you. Agree
You are responsible to do this. Agree
Without the Holy Spirit's creative work you will not come. When you say creative work what do you mean? If you mean convict them of their sin then I agree.
Christ has already died once . Christ died once for all. Agree
and had in mind who he was going to save. God would know who would free trust in the Son because He is omniscient but as for Christ having a specific individual in mind no I do not see that in the bible. We do know that He said He would draw people to Himself but even then those drawn would have to freely trust in Him for their salvation.
I do…just wondering if you do
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Jesus was speaking to Jews that had rejected Him so their minds were closed to His message as the context shows.
The bible gives ample evidence that man can hear and respond to the gospel message. Are you going to say that all those that trust in Christ were already spiritually alive? The bible says they were sinners dead in their sins Ephesians 2:1 But God made them alive by grace because they believed Ephesians 2:5 & Ephesians 2:8
The bible is clear as to what brings about faith. Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. And that salvation is available to all that will exercise their freewill and call on the Lord. Romans 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
The bible even tells us what we must do when we call on Christ Jesus. Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
And even when we would do this and the result. Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
BF you struggle way to hard to deny what the bible says regarding salvation. You should just trust what the bible clearly says.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Oh they come knocking right? Here I am Lord, I’m here to get saved…wrap me up, I’m your gift!
Your flippant attitude say a lot about you and your disrespect for the word of God.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The bible
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Truth hurts huh.
I represent the ELECT, just as my Lord and savior does here. Jesus said, "I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine" (John 17:9). There must have been more than one world, one for which Jesus did not pray. Jesus prayed for the "elect world" for He said, "And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them" (John 17:10). Jesus Christ is glorified in every one born into the elect world.
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Not for Jesus, He did it!
So the bottom line here is, if Jesus Christ died for every man, every man would be saved.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Well now you know, but Im not sure about you.
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