Sanctification by God's Sovereign Grace as Opposed to "Lordship Salvation"

[KenH]

The best I can do is look at myself and decide if I’m walking in a manner worthy of a profession of faith in Jesus and encourage others to do the same.

You are looking to the wrong place. Looking anywhere other than Christ ALONE is worthless.

That is what those folks in Matthew 7:21-23 were doing, looking at themselves - "Have we not prophesied in thy name?", "Have we not cast out devils?", "Have we not done many wonderful works?"

And for modern times - "Have we not made a decision?", "Have we not walked an aisle?", "Have we not prayed 'The Sinner's Prayer'?"

 

[canadyjd]

You are looking to the wrong place. Looking anywhere other than Christ ALONE is worthless.

That is what those folks in Matthew 7:21-23 were doing, looking at themselves - "Have we not prophesied in thy name?", "Have we not cast out devils?", "Have we not done many wonderful works?"

And for modern times - "Have we not made a decision?", "Have we not walked an aisle?", "Have we not prayed 'The Sinner's Prayer'?"

Again, I agree with what you are saying, and I think most folks that hold to LS would agree.

Question to you? In Matthew 7:21-23, did Jesus tell those folks they were being rejected because they were not doing the will of God?

peace to you

 

[KenH]

I don’t really disagree with you that God is always satisfied with Jesus. I do not think that means He is always satisfied with us. Perhaps you could provide scripture that says no matter what we do, God will always be satisfied with us?

The question is…. Does scripture tell us we can grieve God Holy Spirit? If God is grieved, is He happy or unhappy with our behavior or do you believe God doesn’t really care what we do because we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ?

God is absolutely totally sovereign. He ordains everything that takes place.

Daniel 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Do you really think that you can control God's emotions based on anything that you do or say or think? Do you think you can manipulate God?

 

[KenH]

Question to you? In Matthew 7:21-23, did Jesus tell those folks they were being rejected because they were not doing the will of God?

To look anywhere other than to Christ ALONE is to work iniquity. It is attempting to take glory to oneself and away from God.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

 

[DaveXR650]

I hold LS is not Biblical. Case in point, Matthew 7:21-23. Confessing Jesus to be Lord and LORD God is as a good work. I hold salvation is an easy gift to obtain. Our sin nature would make salvation impossible. And for many it does. Wanting to trust in works.

That's the very passage Paul Washer used in his "Shocking Youth Message". I'd listen to it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Extract from A.W. Pink's Studies in Saving faith (Northampton Press. ISBN 0-9-826155-1-5 or go to STUDIES ON SAVING FAITH PART 1 ). Possibly the scariest book you will ever read!

Salvation is by grace, by grace alone, for a fallen creature cannot possibly do anything to merit God’s approval or earn His favour. Nevertheless, Divine grace is not exercised at the expense of holiness, for it never compromises with sin. It is also true that salvation is a free gift, but an empty hand must receive it, and not a hand which still tightly grasps the world! But it is not true that “Christ has done every thing for the sinner.”

He did not fill His belly with the husks which the swine eat and find them unable to satisfy. He has not turned his back on the far country, arisen, gone to the Father, and acknowledged his sins—those are acts which the sinner himself must perform. True, he will not be saved for the performance of them, yet it is equally true that he cannot be saved without the performing of them—any more than the prodigal could receive the Father’s kiss and ring while he still remained at a guilty distance from Him!

Something more than “believing” is necessary to salvation. A heart that is steeled in rebellion against God cannot savingly believe: it must first be broken. It is written “except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” ( Luke 13:3). Repentance is just as essential as faith, yea, the latter cannot be without the former: “Repented not afterward, that ye might believe” ( Matthew 21:32). The order is clearly enough laid down by Christ: “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” ( Mark 1:15). Repentance is sorrowing for sin. Repentance is a heart-repudiation of sin. Repentance is a heart determination to forsake sin. And where there is true repentance grace is free to act, for the requirements of holiness are conserved when sin is renounced. Thus, it is the duty of the evangelist to cry “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord (from whom he departed in Adam), and he will have mercy upon him” ( Isaiah 55:7). His task is to call on his hearers to lay down the weapons of their warfare against God, and then to sue for mercy through Christ. The way of salvation is falsely defined. In most instances the modern “evangelist” assures his congregation that all any sinner has to do in order to escape Hell and make sure of Heaven is to “receive Christ as his personal Saviour.” But such teaching is utterly misleading. No one can receive Christ as his Savior while he rejects Him as Lord. It is true the preacher adds that, the one who accepts Christ should also surrender to Him as Lord, but he at once spoils it by asserting that though the convert fails to do so nevertheless Heaven is sure to him. That is one of the Devil’s lies. Only those who are spiritually blind would declare that Christ will save any who despise His authority and refuse His yoke: Why, my reader, that would not be grace but a disgrace—charging Christ with placing a premium on lawlessness.

 

[DaveXR650]

That is what those folks in Matthew 7:21-23 were doing, looking at themselves - "Have we not prophesied in thy name?", "Have we not cast out devils?", "Have we not done many wonderful works?"

And for modern times - "Have we not made a decision?", "Have we not walked an aisle?", "Have we not prayed 'The Sinner's Prayer'?"

Ken, with all due respect, you should look into these things more before you post. I know this sounds harsh but you're the one who wants everyone to get a book charging this as a heresy. And your post proves you don't even know what it says.
That message above by Washer, and Mac's books, are mainly devoted to taking on the "decisionism" and "Aisle walking" and Washer in particular really takes on "the sinner's prayer". The whole idea is that a "regenerated" person is a changed person and there will be knowable results. Are you sure you have a problem with that?

 

[KenH]

The whole idea is that a "regenerated" person is a changed person and there will be knowable results. Are you sure you have a problem with that?

Tell that to Samson. And he is in "Faith's Hall of Fame" in Hebrews chapter 11.

I have no problem with folks acting better, or "cleaning up their act", so to speak. God's elect should strive, as God ordains their actions and thoughts, to "do better".

The problem is when people preach/teach that UNLESS you have some great, measurable change in your actions and thoughts from what they were before regeneration by God, then maybe, just maybe, you really aren't saved. But even reprobates can "clean up their act" and stop being sexually immoral and doing illegal drugs and getting drunk, etc., but doing so is certainly no evidence that they have been regenerated.

 

[KenH]

That message above by Washer, and Mac's books, are mainly devoted to taking on the "decisionism" and "Aisle walking" and Washer in particular really takes on "the sinner's prayer".

A lot of "Reformed" or "Calvinistic" preachers/teachers come across as teaching that yes, Christ ALONE saves you - but you've got to do this, that, and the other thing to STAY saved, looking to man's perseverance for comfort and evidence instead of to God's preservation of His elect.

 

[DaveXR650]

A lot of "Reformed" or "Calvinistic" preachers/teachers come across as teaching that yes, Christ ALONE saves you but you've got to do this, that, and the other thing to STAY saved, looking to man's perseverance for comfort and evidence instead of to God's preservation of His elect.

Yes. It's your thread and it will blow up if you get into assurance but yes, looking for the presence of various Christian graces and looking for "works" and looking for the presence of love for God and the brethren are legitimate things to look for. The whole modern debate centered on Mac and others refuting the idea of the decisionism which really was unknown in most of Christian history.

There is as part of saving faith, the presence of assurance, just by the definition of what faith is. And, the highest form of assurance is that the Spirit bears a type of inner witness to our spirits that we are born ones of God. That's actually why I read and enjoy many of the things you post from guys who seem at first to be rather nebulous and ethereal but in reality are expressing that. I assure you, these Lordship guys are not taking that on at all. This was specifically designed to warn people today who have had some kind of superficial experience or made a decision for Christ and then go on with nothing changed except a card in a Bible somewhere. The guys Paul Washer is complaining about above would despise the devotional literature you post because they are too carnal and worldly to be blessed by it. My complaint with you is just that your complaint against the LS guys is off the mark.

 

[KenH]

There is as part of saving faith, the presence of assurance

My assurance is 100% in Christ, of Christ, by Christ. I do not, I will not, look to anything in or done or thought by me for assurance.

If you want to look to something in or done by you, go ahead. I will have none of it in my life.

 

[37818]

The passage you quoted, Matthew 7:21-23, has Jesus rejecting those who are not doing the will of God the Father. How exactly does that support your belief?

peace to you

They believed Jesus to be Lord. Question, what was God's will that they did not do that caused them not to be saved? And that they were trusting in their works.

 

[JonC]

It seems an issue may be in definition.

@KenH does a good job explaining what he (and probably most who reject "Lordship Salvation") define the term.

But at the same time those who hold Lordship Salvation tend to define it as repentance and belief (turning from viewing yourself as lord over your life to Christ as Lord of your life).

 

[37818]

@DaveXR650,
That message by Paul Washer is an hour long. I may comment after I have heard it.

 

[canadyjd]

They believed Jesus to be Lord. Question, what was God's will that they did not do that caused them not to be saved? And that they were trusting in their works.

Jesus does not say exactly what they lacked, only that they did not do the will of God.

Jesus does not say everyone that calls Him Lord are rejected, but only those that do not do the will of God.

Jesus said “depart from Me, I never knew you”. That seems to be the difference, imo. Those that are in a right relationship with God are known by God to belong to Jesus. It appears those same folks will fo the will of God during their lives. Thus, they are known by Christ and do the will of God.

peace to you

 

[DaveXR650]

That message by Paul Washer is an hour long. I may comment after I have heard it.

Tune at at 38:00 to about 44:00 and you'll get the jist of what he's saying. And yes, he's a little intense.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I’ve been told by ppl who hold to this LS that the individual who fails to live in submission to the Lordship of Christ demonstrates that he was never truly born again… and I find that frankly appalling.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Tune at at 38:00 to about 44:00 and you'll get the jist of what he's saying. And yes, he's a little intense.

That’s an understatement

 

[DaveXR650]

I’ve been told by ppl who hold to this LS that the individual who fails to live in submission to the Lordship of Christ demonstrates that he was never truly born again… and I find that frankly appalling.

No. If you read anyone from Owen to MacArthur there is no threat against anyone that they might "fail" to live in submission to the lordship of Christ. To fail would mean that someone recognized Christ as Lord, tried to obey his commands and yet was imperfect in their walk. LS is to counteract a very specific problem. Those who have been under a decisional type of ministry, where you depend on a one time "decision" for Christ and have no change in life or attitude. They are not to expect in any way that they are saved. There is a belief in active participation in sanctification but heaven or hell is not based on how WELL you are doing. This goes back to Owen who in his "Mortification of Sin" said it IS essential, yet it is only and exclusively the work of a believer.

I suppose you could apply this to other denominations where you might perform a series of sacraments or subscribe to a "confession" and not really act like you believed any of it was real. But the Lordship Salvation was an answer to a specific problem that depending upon where you came from you would notice or not. In that video, notice how Baptist it is. There is an invitation at the end although even there Washer is teaching about the pitfalls of doing what he was doing. Remember, he was an invited guest, not the one who set up the venue. His style of preaching is familiar to some, strange to others. Take it or leave it.

 

[KenH]

Those who have been under a decisional type of ministry, where you depend on a one time "decision" for Christ and have no change in life or attitude. They are not to expect in any way that they are saved.

I would say that a change in life or attitude does not carry with it any expectation of being saved. As I wrote earlier in this thread, "even reprobates can "clean up their act" and stop being sexually immoral and doing illegal drugs and getting drunk, etc., but doing so is certainly no evidence that they have been regenerated."

A works-based or attitude-based basis for salvation, or assurance of salvation, is false and is not for a believer to place any confidence in whatsoever. It smacks of being a form of Neonomianism..

A true bellever(one whom God has regenerated), looks to Christ ALONE for his assurance. Period. He does not look to anything in himself.