Sanctification by God's Sovereign Grace as Opposed to "Lordship Salvation"

[DaveXR650]

I would say that a change in life or attitude does not carry with it any expectation of being saved. As I wrote earlier in this thread, "even reprobates can "clean up their act" and stop being sexually immoral and doing illegal drugs and getting drunk, etc., but doing so is certainly no evidence that they have been regenerated."

That is true and would be a valid criticism of LS except for the fact that that very thing is dealt with and warned about. The Puritans and Spurgeon dealt with that extensively. You have to keep in mind the modern LS guys like Washer and MacArthur really are dealing specifically with the idea of going forward and getting saved and NOT having any change in life or attitude. No, you can't reverse the argument and still expect it to be of use.

I could say "If you cannot pass a stress test that is proof that you have a serious heart problem." It is NOT true to say "If you do pass a stress test if means for sure you DON'T have a serious heart problem."

It smacks of being a form of Neonomianism..

It might be close. I could also say you are close to antinomianism. I could say you are declaring yourself elect, based on nothing but your thinking you are so, while ignoring all the verses that warn you about the deceitfulness of the human heart. And then you try to hold others back who may be in genuine trouble because they bought into a false system unknown in Christianity for most of it's history.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No. If you read anyone from Owen to MacArthur there is no threat against anyone that they might "fail" to live in submission to the lordship of Christ. To fail would mean that someone recognized Christ as Lord, tried to obey his commands and yet was imperfect in their walk. LS is to counteract a very specific problem. Those who have been under a decisional type of ministry, where you depend on a one time "decision" for Christ and have no change in life or attitude. They are not to expect in any way that they are saved. There is a belief in active participation in sanctification but heaven or hell is not based on how WELL you are doing. This goes back to Owen who in his "Mortification of Sin" said it IS essential, yet it is only and exclusively the work of a believer.

I suppose you could apply this to other denominations where you might perform a series of sacraments or subscribe to a "confession" and not really act like you believed any of it was real. But the Lordship Salvation was an answer to a specific problem that depending upon where you came from you would notice or not. In that video, notice how Baptist it is. There is an invitation at the end although even there Washer is teaching about the pitfalls of doing what he was doing. Remember, he was an invited guest, not the one who set up the venue. His style of preaching is familiar to some, strange to others. Take it or leave it.

For all that is holy, reject it

 

[kyredneck]

Tell that to Samson. And he is in "Faith's Hall of Fame" in Hebrews chapter 11.

Or Solomon. Or that entire generation, Moses and Aaron included, redeemed from the house of bondage that turned back in their hearts to Egypt.

Spot on.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A lot of "Reformed" or "Calvinistic" preachers/teachers come across as teaching that yes, Christ ALONE saves you - but you've got to do this, that, and the other thing to STAY saved, looking to man's perseverance for comfort and evidence instead of to God's preservation of His elect.

Ah good point

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Or Solomon. Or that entire generation, Moses and Aaron included, redeemed from the house of bondage that turned back in their hearts to Egypt.

Spot on.

How about King David and his relationship with Bathsheba?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would say that a change in life or attitude does not carry with it any expectation of being saved. As I wrote earlier in this thread, "even reprobates can "clean up their act" and stop being sexually immoral and doing illegal drugs and getting drunk, etc., but doing so is certainly no evidence that they have been regenerated."

A works-based or attitude-based basis for salvation, or assurance of salvation, is false and is not for a believer to place any confidence in whatsoever. It smacks of being a form of Neonomianism..

A true bellever(one whom God has regenerated), looks to Christ ALONE for his assurance. Period. He does not look to anything in himself.

Very well expressed!

 

[canadyjd]

I’ve been told by ppl who hold to this LS that the individual who fails to live in submission to the Lordship of Christ demonstrates that he was never truly born again… and I find that frankly appalling.

So do I. I am very careful to say I cannot declare anyone saved or unsaved.

The Billy Graham crusade came to KC when I was in seminary and several of the students, not me, volunteered to counsel people who came forward.

In the training put on by BGC, they were told to ask the person if they had ever made a profession of faith in Jesus. If they say they had already made a profession of faith, they were to assure them they were already saved and should join a local church.

I find that, frankly, appalling. That is pretending to know that someone is saved based on “repeat after me and say this prayer….”

Peace to you

 

[George Antonios]

Lordship Salvation is the doctrinal position that receiving Christ involves a strong emphasis on the initial commitment of the sinner to the Lordship of Christ by obedience to the Moral Law of God, repentance of their sins, a progressive increase in godliness, holiness and sinning less, as assurance of salvation. This is what they consider Christ Jesus as being Lord of your life. It also maintains the doctrine that makes Perseverance an emphasis over Preservation. Those who hold to Lordship see this, not only as a requirement, but as already mentioned - a basis for their assurance. Anything less than this emphasis they consider to be “easy believism” in their mind. Lordship Salvation says a lack of obedience in a person’s life is warrant to doubt that one is even saved. Just how much obedience is required for acceptance with God is not clearly spelled out in most Lordship camps, but you can gather that it is never enough to get rid of the burden on their backs.

...

It does seem that most who advocate Lordship Salvation do lift up popular Arminian preachers and theologians who were famous for supposedly "living godly lives", such as heretics like John Wesley, for example. Many of these heretics are the heroes of the Lordship advocates. The problem is, Arminianism is clearly a false gospel and Arminians do NOT have a proper foundation for anything they say about "holy living" since they condition salvation on the sinner in the first place.

Let us be clear that this is not at all a defense for an Arminian Baptist position on Non-Lordship Salvation because they have no real ground for eternal salvation and have a christ who died for many who end up in hell. They have no clue how God saves sinners in the first place.

- excerpt from Pastor Scott Price's webpage on "Sanctification by God's Sovereign Grace as Opposed to "Lordship Salvation" - Lordship Salvation

such as heretics like John Wesley

I don't believe in "Lordship Salvation", as it was aptly described in the quote, and yes, John Wesley was wrong about that, but the pejorative phrase "such as heretics like John Wesley" is cringe-inducing.
I would gladly trade-in half my correct doctrines to be as spiritual a man as John Wesley was.

 

[canadyjd]

I would say that a change in life or attitude does not carry with it any expectation of being saved…...

Does no change in life, attitude, behavior carry with it any expectation of being saved?

Do you believe that if a person has made a profession of faith, they should have assurance of salvation even if they are living in open rebellion with God? How about if they openly deny Jesus is Lord and God.

I have heard people say that if you have said the “sinners prayer”, it does not matter what you believe or how you act, you are saved and going to heaven, though it may be by the skin of your teeth.

That is horrifying to me. It teaches people to resist the convicting work of God Holy Spirit. It teaches people to rely on what they have said at some point in the past, rather rely on God Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth, especially concerning our hope in Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

peace to you

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So do I. I am very careful to say I cannot declare anyone saved or unsaved.

The Billy Graham crusade came to KC when I was in seminary and several of the students, not me, volunteered to counsel people who came forward.

In the training put on by BGC, they were told to ask the person if they had ever made a profession of faith in Jesus. If they say they had already made a profession of faith, they were to assure them they were already saved and should join a local church.

I find that, frankly, appalling. That is pretending to know that someone is saved based on “repeat after me and say this prayer….”

Peace to you

I agree… it’s appalling. Brother it’s all a factor of modern religion. My theological brethren are just happy to be children of God, without all the slight - of - hand tricks on display.

But I remember back to the early days of my brothers graduation from a Bible School in Pennsylvania. This kid became the biggest pest to people, particularly to his own family. I musta been a big challenge to him being a lapsed Catholic and all… to him, living in sin. He sat out there on my poach until 2am telling me that all I had to do to be saved was profess my belief in Christ as my lord & savior. I finally acquiesced to get rid of him. Didn’t do anything to change me.

 

[George Antonios]

I have heard people say that if you have said the “sinners prayer”,

I am inclined to think that those "people" would agree as fast as you would that simply saying a prayer, as if it were a magic incantation, is of no avail unto salvation. I suspect those "people" would qualify their statement as assuming that the person believed the true gospel (of salvation by faith without works) in their heart.

Everyone agrees that there are fakes. Everyone agrees that there ought to be some evidential fruit, though we disagree on the metrics.

At least most so-called "easy believism" defenders would qualify their statement. It is therefore unjust not to represent them correctly.

If your encounters were with the kind who really believe that the heart does not count, only the prayer, that still would not be representative of the general position.

 

[DaveXR650]

Even Owen said that when you come to Christ initially, your concern is with Christ in the office of priest. You are coming to be saved by His shed blood. And it really is that simple, and even easy. But Owen also said that a person who refuses Christ as Lord cannot have him as savior. There is a difference. The only valid criticism of LS I've heard is that it is impossible to know all that it means to have him as Lord. You may not know much at all in fact. So you just come, with the only qualification being that you recognize your need. But the refusal to go on in sanctification or a type of "say a prayer" incantation and then a life with no change shows a person who was not born again. You do not come with a perfection in attitude and the LS guys don't ask that. They are saying that there are more Biblical tests for someone who might be interested in whether they are saved than just faith in your faith or whether your mental exercise was sufficient. And the Bible agrees with them, not you all. Sorry.

 

[DaveXR650]

such as heretics like John Wesley" is cringe-inducing.
I would gladly trade-in half my correct doctrines to be as spiritual a man as John Wesley was.

Quite true.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I’m inclined to believe that all this modern religion stuff is just fear based motivation… and we can stand back and observe how the younger generations are responding to it. Where is Europe today and where is America going? They are closing churches in the hundreds in my neighborhoods with no promises of regeneration. What good are the tactics being used to influence anybody, not the atheists, not the nones etc.

 

[KenH]

It's sad that you think that way.

 

[KenH]

I could also say you are close to antinomianism

I can oppose antinomianism without being legalistic [to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ)] 1 Corinthians 9:21. And I can oppose legalism without being antinomian [Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—“Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.] Colossians 2:20-23

 

[KenH]

But Owen also said that a person who refuses Christ as Lord cannot have him as savior.

The gospel is a declaration, not an offer. There is no offer made to "make" Christ Lord. God already did that for all of His elect - Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:36 (emphasis mine)

We humans do not make God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit anything. Humans have no such power.

I am not all that familiar with John Owen, but I would be seriously surprised if he agreed with the idea of "common grace" and the "well-meant offer".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have been convinced that the Old School Baptists are quite biblical and sincere in their approach to Their Walk with Christ especially in stressing eternal and temporal salvation grids. I must again emphasize that there are “REAL, VITAL differences” and that we are experiencing a “revival of the truth” among Primitive Old School Baptist churches in these days of diminishing Christian Churches. And I fully believe that these vital differences will lead the way back to growth through Grace and Gods Sovereignty.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's sad that you think that way.

Yes and it’s going to have to Sadder before it can get Better!

 

[KenH]

I could say you are declaring yourself elect, based on nothing but your thinking you are so

I am not a child of God because of anything that I did or said or thought. God is the one who gave me a new heart. God is the one who opened my heart to the gospel(as He did for Lydia in the book of Acts), God is the one who showed me that I must have a perfect righteousness in order to stand guiltless before Him and that that perfect righteousness had to be found outside of myself in Christ Jesus, the Lord my Righteousness.

Anything that may be commendable in my actions is because of God, not because I reformed myself or tried to do better or clean up my act. Even reprobates can reform themselves or try to do better or clean up their act. Anything "good" that I do is ALL of God and NONE of myself - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10 (emphasis mine)