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Featured Sanctification by God's Sovereign Grace as Opposed to "Lordship Salvation"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by KenH, Feb 15, 2023.

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  1. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    I think there are some people who teach that, either out of immature misunderstanding, or out of twisting it into legalism (similar to holiness movements). I misunderstood it that way for a time "I am saved by grace but if I don't have enough works then I'm not saved." Again I think this boils down to both my own obsessive compulsive introspective tendencies, and misunderstanding what is being said, although I think MacArthur and others make some pretty sloppy statements sometimes that result in it sounding like legalism.
     
    #101 5 point Gillinist, Feb 19, 2023
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    John 3:6. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
    To find out exactly what this means we need to go to Romans 8:1-11, which is God's own commentary on John 3:6.
    Romans 8:5. 'For those who live acccording to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.'
    So if there is someone in whose life there is nothing to be found but worldliness and carnality, what reason would he have to suppose that he was born of the Spirit?

    I work this out in much more detail on my blog: New Birth (9). Evidences of the New Birth
     
    #102 Martin Marprelate, Feb 19, 2023
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  3. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    I DO NOT agree with the "most people" thing at the top of the thread, and apparently quoted in this reply.
    I agree with canadyjd. To me, Lordship is the attitude of the heart. I hope my attitude is that the Lord Jesus is MY Lord, not me myself being my Lord. He's my Boss, my Master. That's an attitude. Will I mess up? I've messed up my whole life, but neither He nor I am keeping score. He's my Lord and Saviour, no matter what.
     
    #103 MrW, Feb 19, 2023
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  4. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    This thing didn't include canadyjd's quote. Bummer. This site has stuff I am unfamiliar with.
     
    #104 MrW, Feb 19, 2023
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I once heard a preacher say that “we, as Baptists, believe we are saved by grace and not by works and that there is no good work you can do to make it to heaven.

    Unfortunately, it seems most of us have decided to prove it by doing no good works at all.”

    I think there is a lot of truth in that statement.

    peace to you
     
    #105 canadyjd, Feb 21, 2023
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  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I would have challenged him for saying that…ya know with maybe , well Pastor, everybody has an opinion…
     
    #106 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 21, 2023
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think scripturally, his point is that there is an expectation of a transformed life for those professing Christ as Savior.

    Opinions really don’t matter unless they are supported by scripture. From what I have seen, those that support LS are focused on scripture to support their beliefs.

    Those that oppose LS, as far as I can tell, have not addressed the passages of scripture the proponents use to support their beliefs.

    peace to you
     
    #107 canadyjd, Feb 21, 2023
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Colossians 2:20-23 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—“Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
     
    #108 KenH, Feb 21, 2023
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    So you are saying that the Pastor with the snarky passive aggressive comment was backed up by scripture? I would like him to prove to me that we do no work… that would be my first question to him.
     
    #109 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 21, 2023
  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Is this one of the passages that LS proponents use to support their position? I agree with the passage and with Paul that binding yourself to the works of the OT Law (or any other work) as a means of obtaining salvation is fruitless.

    But concerning LS I would think maybe the Ephesians passage which directly states we are “saved unto good works which God has prepared for us….”

    If God has prepared good works for us to do, and indeed it is at least one reason He brought us to salvation, shouldn’t we examine ourselves to see if we are living as God is expecting us to?

    Or do you think the good works that God has prepared for us is simply a suggestion which God doesn’t really care whether we do the works or not?

    peace to you
     
    #110 canadyjd, Feb 21, 2023
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I appreciated his effort to encourage people to examine their lives, to see if they were walking in a manner worthy of a profession of faith.

    If the statement doesn’t apply to you, then praise God for His guidance.

    peace to you
     
    #111 canadyjd, Feb 21, 2023
  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Since God ordains everything that happens, the elect don't have a choice to do or not do the good works that God has ordained that they will do.
     
    #112 KenH, Feb 21, 2023
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    God has ordained that the elect “examine themselves” and their walk from tim to time, to ensure they are not grieving the Spirit with disobedience.

    If all the elect always did the work God had ordained for them, there would be no reason for Paul to tell us to examine ourselves or to encourage us to walk in a manner worthy of our profession of faith. There would be no reason to study ourselves to be approved, to place close attention to doctrine etc.

    If the electric always did the works God has prepared, there no reason to mention we could grieve God Holy Spirit.

    peace to you
     
    #113 canadyjd, Feb 21, 2023
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  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I think Vincent Cheung in his Systematic Theology explains what I am trying to say quite well:

    "As with all the items that this chapter discusses, sanctification is a work of God; however, it is SYNERGISTIC in nature, meaning that it is also in a sense a work of man, and involves his conscious decision and effort in the process. As Paul writes:

    Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12-13)

    The Christian is to actively take his part in sanctification, and deliberately pursue a life of obedience to God "in fear and trembling." Nevertheless, the passage explains that even the working out of our salvation is in fact a work of God: "It is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Our choices and actions remain under God's control after regeneration. Therefore, although a person is conscious of his efforts and struggles in sanctification, in the end God receives the honor, and the Christian still has no basis to boast of his achievements."
     
    #114 KenH, Feb 21, 2023
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  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Also, Robert Hawker in The Poor Man's Morning and Evening Portions for the evening of February 21, in discussing 1 Corinthians 9:21 ("Being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ."), wrote:

    ' To thee, my soul, who hast been brought under the condemnation of God's holy law, and hast been enabled, through sovereign grace, to take refuge in the person, blood, and righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ; to thee, justification by faith, so far from relaxing thine obedience to the law of God, has proved the best of all motives to the practice of it. Thou knowest thyself to be bought with a price; and therefore, as the Lord's property, both by his purchase, and thy voluntary surrender, it is thy desire above all things, "to glorify God in thy body and in thy spirit, which are his." '
     
    #115 KenH, Feb 21, 2023
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  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree and cannot think of any LS proponent that would disagree.

    Thanks for sharing

    peace to you
     
    #116 canadyjd, Feb 21, 2023
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  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely agree and cannot think of any LS proponent that would disagree.

    peace to you
     
    #117 canadyjd, Feb 21, 2023
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  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Hmmm, could that preacher …. LOL
     
    #118 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 22, 2023
  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that preacher could …… lol

    And no, that preacher couldn’t…. Lol

    peace to you
     
    #119 canadyjd, Feb 22, 2023
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  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    This LS stuff I believe is taught in southern Baptists churches …am I correct?
     
    #120 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 23, 2023
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