Featured The Cross

Did you not read post # 48? I responded to your exegesis of Eph 1:1-14 with my own so no ghosting there Austin. You do seem to be rather disingenuous by times.

Why do you not believe what the bible says?
Hebrews 2:9 ...should taste death for every man.
1 John 2:2 propitiation for the whole world.
1 Timothy 4:10 savior of all men.

As is typical of you, when you have no response to try to deflect. I asked you a simple question regarding those verses "Why do you not believe what the bible says?" and you do not answer, so that tells me a lot. You only like the scripture that you think support your philosophical view.

Hebrews 2:9 How can we express that idea in more clear or intelligible language? That this refers to the atonement is evident - for it says that he “tasted death” for them. It expresses it exactly - without any need of modification or explanation.
1 John 2:2 The burden of proof rests with those who wish to deny an atonement made for all, since the Scriptures plainly say that he did die for all. {1 Timothy 2:6, Romans 5:6, Romans 5:8}
And the bible even gives us the reason He died for all. That all could be saved which is the Fathers desire. {1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:10}
1 Timothy 4:10 ...who is the Savior of all men, [provisional] especially of those who believe [conditional application].
Since the atonement is provisional in Christ we can both affirm that He died for all and that only believers will benefit from this atonement. 1Ti_4:10 states this truth very well

Since you disagree with these verses show how they are wrong?

 

He believed that only the elect could be saved. He believed they were the only ones Christ died for. He also believed that the Holy Spirit wrought faith and repentance in those who are saved and they are those called the elect. He also said that you have it on a personal promise from God that ANYONE who comes to Christ will be saved.

If you find that unacceptable then don't go with it. JD above has written a very good standard Baptist view of all this and it is perfectly acceptable in my view to look at it like that. He may very well be right. All Owen was doing is trying to logically work with a few scripturally based assumption that follow:
1. God saves people in a more thorough way than than simply providing directions and removing barriers.
2. God knows who is going to be saved because he chose who is going to be saved and He actively saves them.
3. There is a logical integration in the plan of salvation that has to take all this into account.
4. God doesn't overlook anything. (Those he didn't die for will not come to Christ only to find they were not included in the
atonement. Those who think the whole idea of faith and repentance is foolishness are those who Christ did not die for so
they are not forgiven anyway.)

Personally, I don't go as far as Owen with the Calvinism. But his theology is logical, and most of his writing is about helping us avoid sin and live a life pleasing to God. I like him.

 

Your question, "Why do you not believe what the Bible says", is the equivalent of asking a person on trial, " Why do you not stop beating your wife". It assumes what is not true and asks the person to defend the false question. You use this tactic whenever you are shown your errors and your poor understanding of God's word is exposed. This you do so here.
I will go back to see what you wrote in #48.

 

His theology was, as far as I understand Hyper Calvinism, consistent with his Calvinism. Where I have a problem with what he said is that he says that Christ Jesus died to cover all sins including unbelief. If you actually carry that through to the logical end then the "calvinist elect" have already had their sin of unbelief covered and thus their unbelief would not bar them from salvation.

 

You see your phantom Calvin, your straw man, when I see God's holy word. Here you fall on your crutch immediately.

Thank you.

Here you have added a presupposition without ever observing the text. It biased you immediately.

"By the will of God." Why neglect this?
Specifically to Christians in Ephesus, but also to all believers.

What does grace mean, Sliverhair?
It means "unmerited favor."

You add "united to Christ." The text says "in Christ." Why change the words?

Did God choose us in Christ before the foundation of the world? That is what the text says.

Agreed. God already had it planned and our names were already established as receiving adoption, before the foundation of the world.

Agreed. It is unmerited favor.

You neglected to observe that this is "In Christ." It is not in ourselves.

You add the "so we might understand the depths of God's love for us." Does the text say this is why God lavished his grace? It says that it is God's wisdom and insight.

The mystery of his will is connected to "his wisdom and insight." It was hidden from you, until God initiated what He had predestined to be.

Agreed

Agreed. This is past tense because Paul already informed us that it was decided before the foundation of the world.

Not "might" bring praise, but "would be to the praise of His glory." His grace extended is praiseworthy.

The subject is "In Him." The predicate is "you were sealed with the Holy Spirit." The preposition is "after listening and believing."
Why? It, the Holy Spirit, was already promised.

Agreed

We are chosen by God. The text says, "before the foundation of the world." It is solely by His unmerited favor, according to the text. We listened and believed because it was predestined and promised.

Where, in all of this text, do you see God "offering" salvation to us as a choice? Point out the exact phrase in this passage.

Indeed it does. What we don't see is God offering something to us that we can accept or reject. Why then do you add that idea to the text?

 

Actually you are wrong in your premise. If you asked me the same question, oh wait you have done that, I would answer but you seem to be unable or rather unwilling to do so.

I do not assume anything about whether you believe the bible or not. The fact that you deny clear scripture tells me all I need to know so the question remains why do you not trust what the bible says?

 

Show me where I fall on some dead man when I address you. Or when I state that you do not believe what the Bible says. I wonder what I actually said.
I have repeatedly said that your interpretation of scripture is horrible. I stand by it. I have pointed out that you reduce quotes from the Bible to a sentence or even less than a sentence. You have shown us this fact in this thread.
So, it's on you to prove your assertion by actually quoting me.
Therefore, your assertion here is as empty as Muslims claim that Jesus isn't God

 

So you think that believing is not a choice after they have heard the gospel message.

In G1722 Him G3739 you G5210 also G2532 trusted, after you heard G191 (G5660) the word G3056 of truth G225 , the gospel G2098 of your G5216 salvation G4991; in G1722 whom G3739 also G2532, having believed G4100 (G5660), you were sealed G4972 (G5681) with the Holy G40 Spirit G4151 of promise G1860, Eph 1:13 NKJV

G5660
Tense-Aorist See [G5777]
Voice-Active See [G5784]
Mood -Participle See [G5796]

G5784
Voice-Active
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

In your desperate attempt to avoid the obvious you resort to your normal tactic. Point out the exact phrase. It would seem you really do not have deductive skills. But since you like that phrase so much, point out the exact phrase that says God controls their choice or even the logical one.

 

Your blow and bluster is well noted but as you said yourself in this post "I have repeatedly said that your interpretation of scripture is horrible." is that not you question my understanding of scripture? Gert over yourself Austin.

I have point out to you information from historical documents that the root of Calvinism is bad and you ignore it. You would rather stand by your philosophy so you will fall by your philosophy. Your comments really have no substance to them.

 

Of course I question your interpretation. That's why I look for you to provide your interpretation.
You, however, simply quote a part of a sentence and then say "why don't you believe God's word." Good night, everyone who is able to read can believe those words are on the page. The question is, "What does the passage mean?"
Now, share the passage rather than a part of a sentence.

 

Are you actually incapable of following a link, I would hope not. You are just refusing to deal with the scripture that points out the error of your theology. That is not me doing that it is scripture so why do you struggle with that so much? Do you actually think that my copy pasting the whole text would make it say something different.

I have no doubt that you are sincere in you desire to trust the scriptures but when you have to avoid clear scripture to support your view what am I supposed to say?

You seem to think that those passages hold some hidden meaning, why is that? Do you think the Holy Spirit was trying to be misleading? Since you think there is some hidden meaning perhaps you could point that out. What do you find in that text that has convinced you that what I said was wrong? You do not seem to trust what the bible clearly says, why is that?

 

Your just flailing here.
God speaks and God has a context when He speaks. If you are going to use God's word as a proof text then use it in context. Otherwise you are being deceptive.

 

I note that you only stick to a small part of a verse and refuse to see how the whole informs the little part you are pointing at.

EWF posted this earlier. It's something you have to argue against.

 

Your just in denial. You say that what I posted was wrong so it is up to you to post the correct, as you see it, understanding. Obviously there is enough information in my post for you to come to your conclusion so stop avoiding the question. Why do you not trust what the bible says?

 

Why? If he or you for that matter think that video proves something then state what it is?

 

Well, I deny you know what you are talking about so in that sense I am in denial.
What I am not in denial about is God's word in context.
For the life of me I don't understand why you are so enamored with yourself and your right to rule.

 

Austin it is not me that you have the problem with, it is the text of the bible. You keep making these assertions and yet when I ask you to point out my, to you obvious error, you say nothing. Why is that Austin?

Show me in context how what I posted is wrong. It is time for you to put up or fold your tent and sneak of into the dark.

 

Again, it's not the text that I have a problem with. In my response to you, I note that you add ideas to Ephesians 1 that the text does not have.
Review post #65. Answer the question.
Where, in all of this text, do you see God "offering" salvation to us as a choice? Point out the exact phrase in this passage.

 

I answered your question but it seems you do not like the answer. Your the one that keep saying context so try to understand the context Austin.