The Cross

[Silverhair]

Share the passages of your snippets and exegete them for us. I did that for Ephesians 1 and you went ghost mode and silent when I did.
So, be a good chap and exegete the passages around you snippet of a sentence. Otherwise, you show me that you don't take God's word seriously.

Did you not read post # 48? I responded to your exegesis of Eph 1:1-14 with my own so no ghosting there Austin. You do seem to be rather disingenuous by times.

Why do you not believe what the bible says?
Hebrews 2:9 ...should taste death for every man.
1 John 2:2 propitiation for the whole world.
1 Timothy 4:10 savior of all men.

As is typical of you, when you have no response to try to deflect. I asked you a simple question regarding those verses "Why do you not believe what the bible says?" and you do not answer, so that tells me a lot. You only like the scripture that you think support your philosophical view.

Hebrews 2:9 How can we express that idea in more clear or intelligible language? That this refers to the atonement is evident - for it says that he “tasted death” for them. It expresses it exactly - without any need of modification or explanation.
1 John 2:2 The burden of proof rests with those who wish to deny an atonement made for all, since the Scriptures plainly say that he did die for all. {1 Timothy 2:6, Romans 5:6, Romans 5:8}
And the bible even gives us the reason He died for all. That all could be saved which is the Fathers desire. {1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:10}
1 Timothy 4:10 ...who is the Savior of all men, [provisional] especially of those who believe [conditional application].
Since the atonement is provisional in Christ we can both affirm that He died for all and that only believers will benefit from this atonement. 1Ti_4:10 states this truth very well

Since you disagree with these verses show how they are wrong?

 

[DaveXR650]

Answer me this Dave. Did Owen think that all could be saved or only those that were chosen before the foundation of the world, "the elect" could be saved?

He believed that only the elect could be saved. He believed they were the only ones Christ died for. He also believed that the Holy Spirit wrought faith and repentance in those who are saved and they are those called the elect. He also said that you have it on a personal promise from God that ANYONE who comes to Christ will be saved.

If you find that unacceptable then don't go with it. JD above has written a very good standard Baptist view of all this and it is perfectly acceptable in my view to look at it like that. He may very well be right. All Owen was doing is trying to logically work with a few scripturally based assumption that follow:
1. God saves people in a more thorough way than than simply providing directions and removing barriers.
2. God knows who is going to be saved because he chose who is going to be saved and He actively saves them.
3. There is a logical integration in the plan of salvation that has to take all this into account.
4. God doesn't overlook anything. (Those he didn't die for will not come to Christ only to find they were not included in the
atonement. Those who think the whole idea of faith and repentance is foolishness are those who Christ did not die for so
they are not forgiven anyway.)

Personally, I don't go as far as Owen with the Calvinism. But his theology is logical, and most of his writing is about helping us avoid sin and live a life pleasing to God. I like him.

 

[AustinC]

Did you not read post # 48? I responded to your exegesis of Eph 1:1-14 with my own so no ghosting there Austin. You do seem to be rather disingenuous by times.

Why do you not believe what the bible says?
Hebrews 2:9 ...should taste death for every man.
1 John 2:2 propitiation for the whole world.
1 Timothy 4:10 savior of all men.

As is typical of you, when you have no response to try to deflect. I asked you a simple question regarding those verses "Why do you not believe what the bible says?" and you do not answer, so that tells me a lot. You only like the scripture that you think support your philosophical view.

Hebrews 2:9 How can we express that idea in more clear or intelligible language? That this refers to the atonement is evident - for it says that he “tasted death” for them. It expresses it exactly - without any need of modification or explanation.
1 John 2:2 The burden of proof rests with those who wish to deny an atonement made for all, since the Scriptures plainly say that he did die for all. {1 Timothy 2:6, Romans 5:6, Romans 5:8}
And the bible even gives us the reason He died for all. That all could be saved which is the Fathers desire. {1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:10}
1 Timothy 4:10 ...who is the Savior of all men, [provisional] especially of those who believe [conditional application].
Since the atonement is provisional in Christ we can both affirm that He died for all and that only believers will benefit from this atonement. 1Ti_4:10 states this truth very well

Since you disagree with these verses show how they are wrong?

Your question, "Why do you not believe what the Bible says", is the equivalent of asking a person on trial, " Why do you not stop beating your wife". It assumes what is not true and asks the person to defend the false question. You use this tactic whenever you are shown your errors and your poor understanding of God's word is exposed. This you do so here.
I will go back to see what you wrote in #48.

 

[Silverhair]

He believed that only the elect could be saved. He believed they were the only ones Christ died for. He also believed that the Holy Spirit wrought faith and repentance in those who are saved and they are those called the elect. He also said that you have it on a personal promise from God that ANYONE who comes to Christ will be saved.

If you find that unacceptable then don't go with it. JD above has written a very good standard Baptist view of all this and it is perfectly acceptable in my view to look at it like that. He may very well be right. All Owen was doing is trying to logically work with a few scripturally based assumption that follow:
1. God saves people in a more thorough way than than simply providing directions and removing barriers.
2. God knows who is going to be saved because he chose who is going to be saved and He actively saves them.
3. There is a logical integration in the plan of salvation that has to take all this into account.
4. God doesn't overlook anything. (Those he didn't die for will not come to Christ only to find they were not included in the
atonement. Those who think the whole idea of faith and repentance is foolishness are those who Christ did not die for so
they are not forgiven anyway.)

Personally, I don't go as far as Owen with the Calvinism. But his theology is logical, and most of his writing is about helping us avoid sin and live a life pleasing to God. I like him.

His theology was, as far as I understand Hyper Calvinism, consistent with his Calvinism. Where I have a problem with what he said is that he says that Christ Jesus died to cover all sins including unbelief. If you actually carry that through to the logical end then the "calvinist elect" have already had their sin of unbelief covered and thus their unbelief would not bar them from salvation.

 

[AustinC]

I did see what you wrote regarding Ephesians but the thread was closed by that time. I even tried to PM you but that was a no go. You did not disappoint in what you wrote. As I expected your whole response was done through your Calvinist glasses rather than just go with what the text says.

You see your phantom Calvin, your straw man, when I see God's holy word. Here you fall on your crutch immediately.

Since you will continue to whine about me not responding to your post I will put it here.

Thank you.

"Blessings in Christ" passage

Eph_1:1-14 is a passage that speaks about the blessings that believers in Jesus Christ have received from God.

Here you have added a presupposition without ever observing the text. It biased you immediately.

Verse 1: “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
Paul identifies himself as the author of the letter and addresses the letter to the "saints who are in Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus." The word "saints" refers to all Christians. The phrase "faithful in Christ Jesus" emphasizes the importance of faith in Jesus as the foundation of the Christian life.

"By the will of God." Why neglect this?
Specifically to Christians in Ephesus, but also to all believers.

Verse 2: “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
A greeting from Paul that includes a prayer for the recipients of the letter. Paul prays that they will experience "grace and peace" from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

What does grace mean, Sliverhair?
It means "unmerited favor."

Verse 3: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,"
Paul begins this passage with a doxology, praising God for the blessings that believers have received in Christ. He notes that these blessings are not merely material, but rather "spiritual" in nature, and come from "heavenly places." Only those that are united to Christ Jesus by faith will receive these blessings.

You add "united to Christ." The text says "in Christ." Why change the words?

Verse 4: "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love"
Paul now begins to describe the specific blessings and emphasizes that God chose believers {Eph_1:1} in Christ before the foundation of the world. This is a crucial statement that points to the fact that God's plan of salvation is not an afterthought, but was determined by Him from eternity past. This act of choosing is grounded in God's grace and is not based on works or good deeds that believers have done. {Eph_2:8} Rather, it is solely based on God's love and mercy. The purpose of this choice was that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

Did God choose us in Christ before the foundation of the world? That is what the text says.

Verse 5: "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,"
Paul continues to describe the blessings of believers, noting that God predestined us for adoption as his sons and daughters through Jesus Christ. This means that God planned in advance to make believers his children through their faith in Christ. This adoption was according to God's will, and is a result of his grace and mercy.

Agreed. God already had it planned and our names were already established as receiving adoption, before the foundation of the world.

Verse 6: "to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."
The ultimate purpose of God's choosing and predestining us for adoption is to bring praise and glory to God's grace. This grace is the means by which God has blessed us in Christ.

Agreed. It is unmerited favor.

Verse 7: "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace"
The next blessing that Paul mentions is redemption through the blood of Christ, which is the means by which our sins are forgiven. This redemption is made possible by the riches of God's grace.

You neglected to observe that this is "In Christ." It is not in ourselves.

Verse 8: "which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight"
This grace has been given to us in all wisdom and insight, so that we might understand the depth of God's love for us.

You add the "so we might understand the depths of God's love for us." Does the text say this is why God lavished his grace? It says that it is God's wisdom and insight.

Verse 9: "He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him"
One of the ways that God has shown us his grace is by making known to us the mystery of his will, which was set forth in Christ. This mystery was hidden from previous generations, but has been revealed to us through the gospel.

The mystery of his will is connected to "his wisdom and insight." It was hidden from you, until God initiated what He had predestined to be.

Verse 10: "with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him"
The purpose of God's plan is to unite all things in Christ, both in heaven and on earth. This plan will come to completion in the fullness of time.

Agreed

Verse 11: "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,"
Another blessing that believers have received in Christ is an inheritance, which we have obtained because we were predestined according to God's purpose. God is the one who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

Agreed. This is past tense because Paul already informed us that it was decided before the foundation of the world.

Verse 12: "to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory."
The ultimate purpose of God's plan, including the predestination of believers and the granting of an inheritance, is so that those who hope in Christ might bring praise and glory to God. This is a recurring theme in the passage, highlighting the ultimate goal of all that God has done for believers in Christ.

Not "might" bring praise, but "would be to the praise of His glory." His grace extended is praiseworthy.

Verse 13: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"
Paul now addresses the way and means of salvation, noting that they too have received the blessings in Christ when they heard the gospel and believed in Jesus. As a result of this faith, they were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

The subject is "In Him." The predicate is "you were sealed with the Holy Spirit." The preposition is "after listening and believing."
Why? It, the Holy Spirit, was already promised.

Verse 14: "who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."
The Holy Spirit is not only a seal of our faith, but is also a guarantee of our inheritance. In other words, the Holy Spirit is a down payment or deposit on the blessings that we will receive in the future. Once again, the ultimate purpose of all of these blessings is to bring praise and glory to God.

Agreed

In summary, while our faith is an essential component of our salvation, it is not the basis for our election. We are chosen by God based on His grace and mercy, and our faith in Christ is the means by which we receive the salvation that God has offered to us.

We are chosen by God. The text says, "before the foundation of the world." It is solely by His unmerited favor, according to the text. We listened and believed because it was predestined and promised.

Where, in all of this text, do you see God "offering" salvation to us as a choice? Point out the exact phrase in this passage.

Paul repeatedly emphasizes that these blessings are the result of God's grace and are intended to bring praise and glory to God. The passage thus serves as a powerful reminder of the incredible love and grace that God has shown us in Christ.

Indeed it does. What we don't see is God offering something to us that we can accept or reject. Why then do you add that idea to the text?

 

[Silverhair]

Your question, "Why do you not believe what the Bible says", is the equivalent of asking a person on trial, " Why do you not stop beating your wife". It assumes what is not true and asks the person to defend the false question. You use this tactic whenever you are shown your errors and your poor understanding of God's word is exposed. This you do so here.
I will go back to see what you wrote in #48.

Actually you are wrong in your premise. If you asked me the same question, oh wait you have done that, I would answer but you seem to be unable or rather unwilling to do so.

I do not assume anything about whether you believe the bible or not. The fact that you deny clear scripture tells me all I need to know so the question remains why do you not trust what the bible says?

 

[AustinC]

Actually you are wrong in your premise. If you asked me the same question, oh wait you have done that, I would answer but you seem to be unable or rather unwilling to do so.

I do not assume anything about whether you believe the bible or not. The fact that you deny clear scripture tells me all I need to know so the question remains why do you not trust what the bible says?

Show me where I fall on some dead man when I address you. Or when I state that you do not believe what the Bible says. I wonder what I actually said.
I have repeatedly said that your interpretation of scripture is horrible. I stand by it. I have pointed out that you reduce quotes from the Bible to a sentence or even less than a sentence. You have shown us this fact in this thread.
So, it's on you to prove your assertion by actually quoting me.
Therefore, your assertion here is as empty as Muslims claim that Jesus isn't God

 

[Silverhair]

You see your phantom Calvin, your straw man, when I see God's holy word. Here you fall on your crutch immediately.


Thank you.



Here you have added a presupposition without ever observing the text. It biased you immediately.


"By the will of God." Why neglect this?
Specifically to Christians in Ephesus, but also to all believers.


What does grace mean, Sliverhair?
It means "unmerited favor."


You add "united to Christ." The text says "in Christ." Why change the words?


Did God choose us in Christ before the foundation of the world? That is what the text says.


Agreed. God already had it planned and our names were already established as receiving adoption, before the foundation of the world.


Agreed. It is unmerited favor.


You neglected to observe that this is "In Christ." It is not in ourselves.


You add the "so we might understand the depths of God's love for us." Does the text say this is why God lavished his grace? It says that it is God's wisdom and insight.


The mystery of his will is connected to "his wisdom and insight." It was hidden from you, until God initiated what He had predestined to be.


Agreed


Agreed. This is past tense because Paul already informed us that it was decided before the foundation of the world.


Not "might" bring praise, but "would be to the praise of His glory." His grace extended is praiseworthy.


The subject is "In Him." The predicate is "you were sealed with the Holy Spirit." The preposition is "after listening and believing."
Why? It, the Holy Spirit, was already promised.


Agreed


We are chosen by God. The text says, "before the foundation of the world." It is solely by His unmerited favor, according to the text. We listened and believed because it was predestined and promised.

Where, in all of this text, do you see God "offering" salvation to us as a choice? Point out the exact phrase in this passage.


Indeed it does. What we don't see is God offering something to us that we can accept or reject. Why then do you add that idea to the text?

So you think that believing is not a choice after they have heard the gospel message.

In G1722 Him G3739 you G5210 also G2532 trusted, after you heard G191 (G5660) the word G3056 of truth G225 , the gospel G2098 of your G5216 salvation G4991; in G1722 whom G3739 also G2532, having believed G4100 (G5660), you were sealed G4972 (G5681) with the Holy G40 Spirit G4151 of promise G1860, Eph 1:13 NKJV

G5660
Tense-Aorist See [G5777]
Voice-Active See [G5784]
Mood -Participle See [G5796]

G5784
Voice-Active
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

In your desperate attempt to avoid the obvious you resort to your normal tactic. Point out the exact phrase. It would seem you really do not have deductive skills. But since you like that phrase so much, point out the exact phrase that says God controls their choice or even the logical one.

 

[Silverhair]

Show me where I fall on some dead man when I address you. Or when I state that you do not believe what the Bible says. I wonder what I actually said.
I have repeatedly said that your interpretation of scripture is horrible. I stand by it. I have pointed out that you reduce quotes from the Bible to a sentence or even less than a sentence. You have shown us this fact in this thread.
So, it's on you to prove your assertion by actually quoting me.
Therefore, your assertion here is as empty as Muslims claim that Jesus isn't God

Your blow and bluster is well noted but as you said yourself in this post "I have repeatedly said that your interpretation of scripture is horrible." is that not you question my understanding of scripture? Gert over yourself Austin.

I have point out to you information from historical documents that the root of Calvinism is bad and you ignore it. You would rather stand by your philosophy so you will fall by your philosophy. Your comments really have no substance to them.

 

[AustinC]

Your blow and bluster is well noted but as you said yourself in this post "I have repeatedly said that your interpretation of scripture is horrible." is that not you question my understanding of scripture? Gert over yourself Austin.

I have point out to you information from historical documents that the root of Calvinism is bad and you ignore it. You would rather stand by your philosophy so you will fall by your philosophy. Your comments really have no substance to them.

Of course I question your interpretation. That's why I look for you to provide your interpretation.
You, however, simply quote a part of a sentence and then say "why don't you believe God's word." Good night, everyone who is able to read can believe those words are on the page. The question is, "What does the passage mean?"
Now, share the passage rather than a part of a sentence.

 

[Silverhair]

Of course I question your interpretation. That's why I look for you to provide your interpretation.
You, however, simply quote a part of a sentence and then say "why don't you believe God's word." Good night, everyone who is able to read can believe those words are on the page. The question is, "What does the passage mean?"
Now, share the passage rather than a part of a sentence.

Are you actually incapable of following a link, I would hope not. You are just refusing to deal with the scripture that points out the error of your theology. That is not me doing that it is scripture so why do you struggle with that so much? Do you actually think that my copy pasting the whole text would make it say something different.

I have no doubt that you are sincere in you desire to trust the scriptures but when you have to avoid clear scripture to support your view what am I supposed to say?

You seem to think that those passages hold some hidden meaning, why is that? Do you think the Holy Spirit was trying to be misleading? Since you think there is some hidden meaning perhaps you could point that out. What do you find in that text that has convinced you that what I said was wrong? You do not seem to trust what the bible clearly says, why is that?

 

[AustinC]

Are you actually incapable of following a link, I would hope not. You are just refusing to deal with the scripture that points out the error of your theology. That is not me doing that it is scripture so why do you struggle with that so much? Do you actually think that my copy pasting the whole text would make it say something different.

I have no doubt that you are sincere in you desire to trust the scriptures but when you have to avoid clear scripture to support your view what am I supposed to say?

You seem to think that those passages hold some hidden meaning, why is that? Do you think the Holy Spirit was trying to be misleading? Since you think there is some hidden meaning perhaps you could point that out. What do you find in that text that has convinced you that what I said was wrong? You do not seem to trust what the bible clearly says, why is that?

Your just flailing here.
God speaks and God has a context when He speaks. If you are going to use God's word as a proof text then use it in context. Otherwise you are being deceptive.

 

[AustinC]

So you think that believing is not a choice after they have heard the gospel message.

In G1722 Him G3739 you G5210 also G2532 trusted, after you heard G191 (G5660) the word G3056 of truth G225 , the gospel G2098 of your G5216 salvation G4991; in G1722 whom G3739 also G2532, having believed G4100 (G5660), you were sealed G4972 (G5681) with the Holy G40 Spirit G4151 of promise G1860, Eph 1:13 NKJV

G5660
Tense-Aorist See [G5777]
Voice-Active See [G5784]
Mood -Participle See [G5796]

G5784
Voice-Active
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

In your desperate attempt to avoid the obvious you resort to your normal tactic. Point out the exact phrase. It would seem you really do not have deductive skills. But since you like that phrase so much, point out the exact phrase that says God controls their choice or even the logical one.

I note that you only stick to a small part of a verse and refuse to see how the whole informs the little part you are pointing at.

EWF posted this earlier. It's something you have to argue against.

 

[Silverhair]

Your just flailing here.
God speaks and God has a context when He speaks. If you are going to use God's word as a proof text then use it in context. Otherwise you are being deceptive.

Your just in denial. You say that what I posted was wrong so it is up to you to post the correct, as you see it, understanding. Obviously there is enough information in my post for you to come to your conclusion so stop avoiding the question. Why do you not trust what the bible says?

 

[Silverhair]

EWF posted this earlier. It's something you have to argue against.

Why? If he or you for that matter think that video proves something then state what it is?

 

[AustinC]

Your just in denial. You say that what I posted was wrong so it is up to you to post the correct, as you see it, understanding. Obviously there is enough information in my post for you to come to your conclusion so stop avoiding the question. Why do you not trust what the bible says?

Well, I deny you know what you are talking about so in that sense I am in denial.
What I am not in denial about is God's word in context.
For the life of me I don't understand why you are so enamored with yourself and your right to rule.

 

[Silverhair]

Well, I deny you know what you are talking about so in that sense I am in denial.
What I am not in denial about is God's word in context.
For the life of me I don't understand why you are so enamored with yourself and your right to rule.

Austin it is not me that you have the problem with, it is the text of the bible. You keep making these assertions and yet when I ask you to point out my, to you obvious error, you say nothing. Why is that Austin?

Show me in context how what I posted is wrong. It is time for you to put up or fold your tent and sneak of into the dark.

 

[AustinC]

Austin it is not me that you have the problem with, it is the text of the bible. You keep making these assertions and yet when I ask you to point out my, to you obvious error, you say nothing. Why is that Austin?

Show me in context how what I posted is wrong. It is time for you to put up or fold your tent and sneak of into the dark.

Again, it's not the text that I have a problem with. In my response to you, I note that you add ideas to Ephesians 1 that the text does not have.
Review post #65. Answer the question.
Where, in all of this text, do you see God "offering" salvation to us as a choice? Point out the exact phrase in this passage.

 

[JonC]

Again, it's not the text that I have a problem with. In my response to you, I note that you add ideas to Ephesians 1 that the text does not have.
Review post #65. Answer the question.
Where, in all of this text, do you see God "offering" salvation to us as a choice? Point out the exact phrase in this passage.

@AustinC ,

I'm not saying you are right or wrong, BUT you regularly add ideas to passages that are not actually in the text.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, it's not the text that I have a problem with. In my response to you, I note that you add ideas to Ephesians 1 that the text does not have.
Review post #65. Answer the question.
Where, in all of this text, do you see God "offering" salvation to us as a choice? Point out the exact phrase in this passage.

I answered your question but it seems you do not like the answer. Your the one that keep saying context so try to understand the context Austin.