What do you mean”without the gospel?”
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Lapsarianism
- Thread starter MrW
- Start date
Are you a believer in the Trinity? Well Duty faith wrests the work of regeneration from the Holy Spirit. “To put it bluntly, within the covenant of grace it is the Holy Spirit’s duty to give faith to those for whom Christ died. It is not every man’s duty to appropriate this task to himself…The Holy Spirit will never honour a doctrine that relieves Him of His role or robs Him of His glory.”
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
The Spirit uses the Gospel in preaching, as the power of God unto an experience of Salvation, in a specific event, at a specific time.
There a particular moment when a soul is Saved by God, using the INSTRUMENTALITY of the Word, in the preaching of the Gospel.
At an Appointed Time, by God, the lost sinner is Saved by means of the Spirit and belief in the Gospel, in the Word of God.
The Salvation experience is to be realized by faith - "belief in the truth," through the enabling power of the Spirit, enabling the lost soul in hearing the Gospel and being Born Again.
14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
The Gospel is preached, the sinner is Given Repentance and Faith by God, which is the New Birth, and the Saved soul calls on Jesus.
37818
Well-Known Member
Faith as a requirement is not a work meriting salvation which is wholly God's work. Romans 4:1-5.
What is the order or sequence of God's actions to bring us spiritually and bodily to Him?
Lets start once again with Ephesians 1:4.
Our first question is did God choose us as individuals before creation, or did He choose us corporately as the target group of His redemption plan? Since the Lamb of God was known before creation, God had formulated His Redemption plan, and had chosen His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before creation. And certainly then, God had anticipated humanity's fall before creation because He formulated a redemption plan for that Fall.
So by the numbers:
1) God formulated His Redemption plan, anticipating the Fall.
2) God chose Logos to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God
3) In choosing His Redeemer, God chose corporately those His Redeemer would redeem.
All of the above occurred in the order given before creation.
During the creation week:
1) God created humans, male and female.
2) The first people were placed in the garden of Eden, along with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
After or since the creation week:
1) God allowed Adam to volitionally sin, knowingly violating God's will.
2) God imposed the consequences of Adam's sin upon Adam, Eve, and their descendants - all humanity. The Fall
Between the time of the Fall and Christ's death, but still in the time frame since creation:
1) Old Testament saints gained approval through their faith in God and His promises. This election was individual based on God crediting their faith, such as Abraham's faith, as righteousness. This action did not make those chosen righteous, but set them apart to be made perfect after Christ died. Upon physical death, these OT saints were taken to "Abraham's bosom."
After Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross, but still in the time frame since creation:
1) New Covenant saints, starting with the thief on the day Christ physically died, are taken directly to the Third Heaven, the abode of God.
2) During the interval between Christ's death on Friday and His bodily resurrection on Sunday, Christ took all the OT Saints out of "Abraham's bosom" to the Third Heaven.
3) Now, when God chooses an individual for salvation, God transfers them spiritually into Christ's spiritual body.
4) When Christ returns to earth at His second coming all those chosen according to God's redemption plan, will be raised or changed in the twinkling of an eye, and join Christ in the air, our ultimate sanctification.[/QUOTE]
Lets start once again with Ephesians 1:4.
Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
Our first question is did God choose us as individuals before creation, or did He choose us corporately as the target group of His redemption plan? Since the Lamb of God was known before creation, God had formulated His Redemption plan, and had chosen His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before creation. And certainly then, God had anticipated humanity's fall before creation because He formulated a redemption plan for that Fall.
So by the numbers:
1) God formulated His Redemption plan, anticipating the Fall.
2) God chose Logos to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God
3) In choosing His Redeemer, God chose corporately those His Redeemer would redeem.
All of the above occurred in the order given before creation.
During the creation week:
1) God created humans, male and female.
2) The first people were placed in the garden of Eden, along with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
After or since the creation week:
1) God allowed Adam to volitionally sin, knowingly violating God's will.
2) God imposed the consequences of Adam's sin upon Adam, Eve, and their descendants - all humanity. The Fall
Between the time of the Fall and Christ's death, but still in the time frame since creation:
1) Old Testament saints gained approval through their faith in God and His promises. This election was individual based on God crediting their faith, such as Abraham's faith, as righteousness. This action did not make those chosen righteous, but set them apart to be made perfect after Christ died. Upon physical death, these OT saints were taken to "Abraham's bosom."
After Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross, but still in the time frame since creation:
1) New Covenant saints, starting with the thief on the day Christ physically died, are taken directly to the Third Heaven, the abode of God.
2) During the interval between Christ's death on Friday and His bodily resurrection on Sunday, Christ took all the OT Saints out of "Abraham's bosom" to the Third Heaven.
3) Now, when God chooses an individual for salvation, God transfers them spiritually into Christ's spiritual body.
4) When Christ returns to earth at His second coming all those chosen according to God's redemption plan, will be raised or changed in the twinkling of an eye, and join Christ in the air, our ultimate sanctification.[/QUOTE]
37818
Well-Known Member
I cannot address what some people may have claimed, based on speculation.
On that Friday, on the day Christ died, Christ and the thief spiritually ascended to the Third Heaven. Some deny this, but it is obviously true. Just read verse 9.
LOL, most people see it traditionally.
I don't have a big problem with Calvinists--until they try to convert me to their errors.
I'm happy they're saved (if they are; God knows), and if Calvinism makes them happy, fine, just don't try to convince me that it's right. If I can accept they are saved, they need to accept I am saved, and don't try to convert me to their system when I'm ALREADY saved. They need to go reach someone who isn't saved.
I'm happy they're saved (if they are; God knows), and if Calvinism makes them happy, fine, just don't try to convince me that it's right. If I can accept they are saved, they need to accept I am saved, and don't try to convert me to their system when I'm ALREADY saved. They need to go reach someone who isn't saved.
The mainstream view is Christ died on Friday afternoon, and arose Sunday morning. This is not the topic of this thread. We have had several threads kicking around that topic, no need to continue to derail this thread with that issue.
Post #65 presents the sequence of God's actions past, present and future. So the need is to discuss whether that sequence is thought to miss the mark or not reflect some disclosure of scripture.
Post #65 presents the sequence of God's actions past, present and future. So the need is to discuss whether that sequence is thought to miss the mark or not reflect some disclosure of scripture.
I disagree with this part of #65: "1) New Covenant saints, starting with the thief on the day Christ physically died, are taken directly to the Third Heaven, the abode of God."
Christ told him, "This day, you will be with Me in Paradise". Paradise was Abraham's Bosom. So for some period of time, they were both in Paradise before Christ carried it to Heaven.
I also disagree with this: "4) When Christ returns to earth at His second coming all those chosen according to God's redemption plan, will be raised or changed in the twinkling of an eye, and join Christ in the air, our ultimate sanctification". All the saved will be raised and changed at the translation of the Church, not at the Second Coming.
Christ told him, "This day, you will be with Me in Paradise". Paradise was Abraham's Bosom. So for some period of time, they were both in Paradise before Christ carried it to Heaven.
I also disagree with this: "4) When Christ returns to earth at His second coming all those chosen according to God's redemption plan, will be raised or changed in the twinkling of an eye, and join Christ in the air, our ultimate sanctification". All the saved will be raised and changed at the translation of the Church, not at the Second Coming.