Behold!... I Stand At The Door And Knock

[JonC]

Does God plead to let lost people into "sup"?
Where else is anything like that taught?



That would involve lost sinners being Totally Depraved and, then, the rest of the Bible teachings on "if any man come to Me"...it is because God calls and draws them, etc., etc., etc.




After all, the context IS: "19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten:
be zealous, therefore, and repent."



Like? John 10? This is a parable and Jesus says,
"he that entereth in by the door
is the shepherd of the sheep".

What about that?

Jesus said He enters in by the door, in this parable.

Revelation 3 is an Apocalyptic Vision Prophecy,
written in a letter to a church;
and Jesus says, "

"20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:
if any man hear my voice, and open the door,
I will come in to him and will sup with him, and he with me."

You can't mix a Parable's teaching with the Apocalyptic genre,
but it's a little bit niffy to think about, anyway.

But then, Gill mixes in the "wise virgins"
and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb", though below.


James 5:9; Grudge not one against another, brethren,
lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Was Jesus about to Judge the Laodicians, if they did not repent?

Sounds like it.

Go to guy, Gill: "his knocking may signify the notice that will be given of" Judgment.

"and open the door;
or show a readiness for the coming of Christ, look and wait for it,
and be like such that will receive him with a welcome:

"I will come unto him, and sup with him, and he with me;
to and among these will Christ appear when he comes in person; and these being like wise virgins, ready, having his grace in their hearts, and his righteousness upon them, he will take them at once into the marriage chamber, and shut the door upon the rest..."

I think Jesus is talking to His sheep;

22 "He that hath an ear,
let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

...

"how that has been taken to mean prior to Judgment people exist as sheep..."

John 10 is prior to Judgment;

1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice:
and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep,
he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow but will flee from him:
for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them:
but they understood not what things they were
which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers:
but the sheep did not hear them.

...11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

...26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The verse does not literally mean "eat supper".

In Revelation Jesus tells a congregation (via John) that He "stands at the door and knocks".

Is Jesus knocking on only those who responds?

That seems to be your question.

The answer in the passage is "no".

We know this for several reasons

First, Jesus tells them He is about to discard them. BUT this does not fit with other passages concerning believers.

Second, those to whom Jesus is speaking may not overcome. But we will overcome if Christ is in us.

Third, the recipients of these words are in danger of not being with Christ. They are wretched, poor and blind

Fourth, Jesus words "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door" is a conditional statement.


And this passage is not inconsistent with Scripture. It is only inconsistent with some of man's theology. Those two things are not the same.

 

[JonC]

There is a difference between being the elect and being under the common grace of the New Covenant, just as there was a difference between being an elect person who had faith in the Promised One and a person who was born into the Mosaic Covenant as an Israelite.

The elect have always been secure.



The elect are the only ones who actually open the door. Those who lived under the Covenant (think your children and others in the church that are not saved) but don't believe, will not open the door. They are spit out. They are the tares among the wheat. They are the goats among the sheep.

Much of Revelation is God revealing His process of separating the wheat from the tares, even now.

A more biblical way of saying that is those who open the door are among the elect.

 

[DaveXR650]

The Handle is on the Other Side

I don't see anything wrong with using the passage just like the link as a means of encouraging someone to come to Christ. Is the issue here that it leaves too much power in the hands of the sinner to not open the door? Or is it that because it was addressed to a church it could not be to unsaved people? Some of you guys have preached. Are you allowed to preach or are you limited to a type of preaching where you always read a passage and exegete the passage?

 

[JonC]

I don't see anything wrong with using the passage just like the link as a means of encouraging someone to come to Christ. Is the issue here that it leaves too much power in the hands of the sinner to not open the door? Or is it that because it was addressed to a church it could not be to unsaved people? Some of you guys have preached. Are you allowed to preach or are you limited to a type of preaching where you always read a passage and exegete the passage?

I think the main problem is well meaning Christians read into things by imagining what they would mean by those words.

I've seen some take "repent and believe" to be advocating a works based salvation, the "sinners prayer" as a mode of salvation, ect.

People are better at expressing what they believe than they are at judging other servants of Christ.

 

[AustinC]

I think the main problem is well meaning Christians read into things by imagining what they would mean by those words.

I've seen some take "repent and believe" to be advocating a works based salvation, the "sinners prayer" as a mode of salvation, ect.

People are better at expressing what they believe than they are at judging other servants of Christ.

I had a Southern Baptist Pastor (Arminian) tell me that everyone who says the sinners prayer is saved and secure, even if there is no change in their lifestyle. I have a problem with that soteriology.

 

[JonC]

I had a Southern Baptist Pastor (Arminian) tell me that everyone who says the sinners prayer is saved and secure, even if there is no change in their lifestyle. I have a problem with that soteriology.

Then that pastor is wrong.

I don't mean there is no wrong ideas out there.

I am saying it is wrong to stereotype everybody who uses something in accordance with your experience.

 

[37818]

Is the issue here that it leaves too much power in the hands of the sinner to not open the door? Or is it that because it was addressed to a church it could not be to unsaved people?

No and no. The messenger to that church wasn't yet saved.

". . . And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. . . ."

Are you allowed to preach or are you limited to a type of preaching where you always read a passage and exegete the passage?

Suppositions.

 

[AustinC]

Then that pastor is wrong.

I don't mean there is no wrong ideas out there.

I am saying it is wrong to stereotype everybody who uses something in accordance with your experience.

What I know about God is that he can, and does use bad teaching as a means of saving his elect. His elect then read His Word and recognize they are in a place that will not cause them to grow in faith. God then leads them onward, sometimes by zigs and zags, toward his throne.

 

[Alan Gross]

18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire,
that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment,
that thou mayest be clothed,
and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear;
and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

From Sardis: "4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Jesus is counseling saved people.

Jesus doesn't "counsel" the lost.

These New Testament churches were diligently baptizing only saved people into their assemblies, making up Regenerated Congregations.

Nothing could be more clear than that Jesus was addressing saved individuals.

Jesus didn't wait until reprimanding the last church of seven and say, "now I would like to give an invitation to the lost", with no clear reference for changing His message for the churches to hear, if they have an ear to hear.

In fact the story about the picture only claims that after figuring Jesus was talking to the saved that they then suggest people form their doctrine from an Artist's message about a picture he painted(?) about Jesus also talking to the lost(?) in an entirely new way, wanting them to commune or fellowship or sup with Him(?)

He is about to discard them. BUT this does not fit with other passages concerning believers.

Discard? How about "take away their Candlestick"? Judge.

those to whom Jesus is speaking may not overcome.

From Sardis: "5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life..."

They were saved and written in "The Lamb's Book of Life", from Eternity past, but "the book of life" is the book of the living.

Jesus is asking, "do you want to live" by overcoming and not "sleep", etc.

Overcome what? the assumption of "staying saved", or something?

How about overcoming themselves as carnal Christians and The Beast and being "more than conquerors"?

the recipients of these words are in danger of not being with Christ

In what way?

From Philadelphia:

Revelation 3:12; "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God";

The Lord's children that were right with God were pillars in His New Testament churches, like this one, which was a Temple of God, a church of the Living God and they were with Jesus, in the mist of His churches, communing and fellowshipping and supping with Him.

I Timothy 3:15; "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

Revelation 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne..."

Ephesians 2:6; "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

as High Preists in prayer to Him, the Lord's children are raised up, when they are right with God, ruling with Him from Earth, as He is the Intercessor in Heaven on His Throne.

If we are repentant and right with God.

opens the door"

As in Philadelphia:

7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth

Isaiah had to deal with this kind of thing as that painting in his day.

Isaiah 42:17; "They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods."

This is a straightforward graven image of a helpless god, dead with incapacity and powerlessness to save, waiting for a lost sinner's own activity in their desperately wicked and deceitful heart to save themselves,

And a graven image of a lost sinner's Spark of Quickening Divinity with a "handle" on the inside of their heart, that self-births them into Life Eternal.

Then, there are these 'preachers' who zealously contend for this graven image's pure, in-stage, bonafide Scriptural authenticity, by quoting Scriptures and essentially saying, "Ye are our gods."

Horror of horrors.

This false image depicts a false 'helpless god'

and a sufficiently stronger 'sinner god' with adequate power to initiate another cursed gospel.

So, then talking a lot like Jesus, Isaiah said, in 18; "Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see."

In trusting a graven image of this nature with their Eternal soul, the only thing a lost sinner is going to 'open', if they believe what is presented, is their eyes in the mist of The Lake of Fire.

Acts 16:14; "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us*: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Lydia heard Paul's preaching of the Gospel, as the power of God unto Salvation, under which God granted Lydia conviction, Repentance and Faith, which is the New Birth, when God opened her heart.

That is the one way God saves people.

Not by knocking on the door of anything or anyone.

You must be Born again.

Ever hear of it?

Jesus is the Savior, to the Glory of Him and the Triune GODHEAD, in their Eternal Plan of Salvation and Covenant of Grace.

 

[JonC]

What I know about God is that he can, and does use bad teaching as a means of saving his elect. His elect then read His Word and recognize they are in a place that will not cause them to grow in faith. God then leads them onward, sometimes by zigs and zags, toward his throne.

I agree. I think this may be why God commanded us not to judge other congregations. He will make them stand.

 

[JonC]

18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire,
that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment,
that thou mayest be clothed,
and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear;
and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

From Sardis: "4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Jesus is counseling saved people.

Jesus doesn't "counsel" the lost.

These New Testament churches were diligently baptizing only saved people into their assemblies, making up Regenerated Congregations.

Nothing could be more clear than that Jesus was addressing saved individuals.

Jesus didn't wait until reprimanding the last church of seven and say, "now I would like to give an invitation to the lost", with no clear reference for changing His message for the churches to hear, if they have an ear to hear.

In fact the story about the picture only claims that after figuring Jesus was talking to the saved that they then suggest people form their doctrine from an Artist's message about a picture he painted(?) about Jesus also talking to the lost(?) in an entirely new way, wanting them to commune or fellowship or sup with Him(?)



Discard? How about "take away their Candlestick"? Judge.



From Sardis: "5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life..."

They were saved and written in "The Lamb's Book of Life", from Eternity past, but "the book of life" is the book of the living.

Jesus is asking, "do you want to live" by overcoming and not "sleep", etc.

Overcome what? the assumption of "staying saved", or something?

How about overcoming themselves as carnal Christians and The Beast and being "more than conquerors"?



In what way?

From Philadelphia:

Revelation 3:12; "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God";

The Lord's children that were right with God were pillars in His New Testament churches, like this one, which was a Temple of God, a church of the Living God and they were with Jesus, in the mist of His churches, communing and fellowshipping and supping with Him.

I Timothy 3:15; "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

Revelation 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne..."

Ephesians 2:6; "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

as High Preists in prayer to Him, the Lord's children are raised up, when they are right with God, ruling with Him from Earth, as He is the Intercessor in Heaven on His Throne.

If we are repentant and right with God.



As in Philadelphia:

7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth

Isaiah had to deal with this kind of thing as that painting in his day.

Isaiah 42:17; "They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods."

This is a straightforward graven image of a helpless god, dead with incapacity and powerlessness to save, waiting for a lost sinner's own activity in their desperately wicked and deceitful heart to save themselves,

And a graven image of a lost sinner's Spark of Quickening Divinity with a "handle" on the inside of their heart, that self-births them into Life Eternal.

Then, there are these 'preachers' who zealously contend for this graven image's pure, in-stage, bonafide Scriptural authenticity, by quoting Scriptures and essentially saying, "Ye are our gods."

Horror of horrors.

This false image depicts a false 'helpless god'

and a sufficiently stronger 'sinner god' with adequate power to initiate another cursed gospel.

So, then talking a lot like Jesus, Isaiah said, in 18; "Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see."

In trusting a graven image of this nature with their Eternal soul, the only thing a lost sinner is going to 'open', if they believe what is presented, is their eyes in the mist of The Lake of Fire.

Acts 16:14; "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us*: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Lydia heard Paul's preaching of the Gospel, as the power of God unto Salvation, under which God granted Lydia conviction, Repentance and Faith, which is the New Birth, when God opened her heart.

That is the one way God saves people.

Not by knocking on the door of anything or anyone.

You must be Born again.

Ever hear of it?

Jesus is the Savior, to the Glory of Him and the Triune GODHEAD, in their Eternal Plan of Salvation and Covenant of Grace.

I disagree because I believe the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer. The elect are not endanger if not overcoming, of not being with Christ, and of being cast out.

I think that (other doctrines where we may differ) is the source of our disagreement here.

But you are right in that IF the elect can fall away (become reprobate), not overcome and be cast out THEN those words may be to believers.

But if one believes that none of the elect will be lost then those words are to a congregation comprised of believers and the lost.

 

[DaveXR650]

The elect are not endanger if not overcoming, of not being with Christ, and of being cast out.

This is a true theological statement. I just think it is a proper use of scriptures like Revelation 3:20, to take them just as they are written, and if the Holy Spirit makes use of it and applies it to your heart then take it as a warning and repent. It may well be that part of being elect is that you are concerned about being elect and heed warnings to avoid lukewarmness.

But you are right in that IF the elect can fall away (become reprobate), not overcome and be cast out THEN those words may be to believers.

That's a good point. To me, part of proper exegesis is to look for what isn't there. If the passage is ambiguous about being to believers or doesn't bring up eternal security then I would be careful about insisting it was only to believers. When this came up before, I noticed that some Calvinists on the internet, including some good ones, ridiculed this passage as an invitation. I just noticed that almost all of the solid Calvinist preachers from the Puritan era through the era of Bonar and Spurgeon DID use it as an invitation for non-believers. Make of it what you will.

 

[Alan Gross]

But you are right in that IF the elect can fall away (become reprobate), not overcome and be cast out THEN those words may be to believers.

We can't automatically assume

21 "To him that overcometh" jumps out at us and means to not "fall away (become reprobate)(?),"

Because Jesus had never been exposed to "fall away (become reprobate) when He goes on to say, "even as I also overcame," and He is more than Elect.

The Lord chastens His children

19a; "Whom I love, I rebuke and chasten",

19b; and The Lord admonishes His saved children to be zealous, in the verse before.

"be zealous therefore, and repent." 20

The lost are never told to "be zealous".


◄ Revelation 3:20 ►
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

I really am at a loss as to why a Bible expositor would skip the Bible and tear into teaching a painting, but they do.

And, as conspicuous as it is that the word, " heart" is not in the passage, he dives right in, all over it, and I suppose his love of the picture, then, needs to include adding a handle on that heart, too.

Why not?

Because as with any false teaching God can Sovereignly overrule it and give Mercy to the hearers to reject it and Hear another Message, from HIM, but what if they believe what they are told that comes strictly from the preacher preaching a bunch of heresy from a picture. They and their handle and lost heart remain lost. That is ETERNALLY FATAL and Tragic. And not what God calls His men to do.

MacLaren calls this "his text", "a universal truth" and a "reversal of the attitudes of the great and of the lowly, of the giver and of the receiver, of the Divine and of the human!

But, he gets there from a picture, goes from "a little church in Asia" to "any man" and starts adding into it talk about a "heart".

I can't help but think these are the makings of some kind of religious nit, for God's sake.

MacLaren's Expositions

CHRIST AT THE DOOR

Revelation 3:20.

"Many of us are familiar, I dare say, with the devoutly imaginative rendering of the first part of these wonderful words, which we owe to the genius of a living painter. In it we see the fast shut door, with rusted hinges, all overgrown with rank, poisonous weeds, which tell how long it has been closed. There stands, amid the night dews and the darkness, the patient Son of man, one hand laid on the door, the other bearing a light, which may perchance flash through some of its chinks. In His face are love repelled, and pity all but wasted; in the touch of His hand are gentleness and authority.

"But the picture pauses, of course, at the beginning of my text, and its sequel is quite as wonderful as its first part. ‘I will come in to him, and sup with him, and he with Me.’ What can surpass such words as these? I venture to take this great text, and ask you to look with me at the three things that lie in it; the suppliant for admission; the door opened; the entrance, and the feast.

"I. Think, then, first of all, of that suppliant for admission.

"I suppose that the briefest explanation of my text is sufficient. Who knocks? The exalted Christ. What is the door? This closed heart of man. What does He desire? Entrance. What are His knockings and His voice? All providences; all monitions of His Spirit in man’s spirit and conscience; the direct invitations of His written or spoken word; in brief, whatsoever sways our hearts to yield to Him and enthrone Him. This is the meaning, in the fewest possible words, of the great utterance of my text.

"Here is a revelation of a universal truth, applying to every man and woman on the face of the earth; but more especially and manifestly to those of us who live within the sound of Christ’s gospel and of the written revelations of His grace. True, my text was originally spoken in reference to the unworthy members of a little church of early believers in Asia Minor, but it passes far beyond the limits of the lukewarm Laodiceans to whom it was addressed. And the ‘any man’ which follows is wide enough to warrant us in stretching out the representation as far as the bounds of humanity extend, and in believing that wherever there is a closed heart there is a knocking Christ, and that all men are lightened by that Light which came into the world.

Upon that I do not need to dwell, but I desire to enforce the individual bearing of the general truth upon our own consciences, and to come to each with this message: The saying is true about thee, and at the door of thy heart Jesus Christ stands, and there His gentle, mighty hand is laid, and on it the flashes of His light shine, and through the chinks of the unopened door of thy heart comes the beseeching voice, Open! Open unto Me.’ A strange reversal of the attitudes of the great and of the lowly, of the giver and of the receiver, of the Divine and of the human! Christ once said, Knock and it shall be opened unto you.’ But He has taken the suppliant’s place, and, standing by the side of each of us. He beseeches us that we let Him bless us, and enter in for our rest.

"So, then, there is here a revelation, not only of a universal truth, but a most tender and pathetic disclosure of Christ’s yearning love to each of us. What do you call that emotion which more than anything else desires that a heart should open and let it enter? We call it love ...And they are once more brought into the presence of that rejected, patient, wooing Lord, who courts them for their souls, as if they were, which indeed they are, too precious to be lost, as long as there is a ghost of a chance that they may still listen to His voice."

On and on the piper goes forth to pipe straight up error.

At best, this Error is an unmitigated Disaster, at worse, I don't want to think about right now.

 

[Alan Gross]

That's a good point. To me, part of proper exegesis is to look for what isn't there. If the passage is ambiguous about being to believers or doesn't bring up eternal security then I would be careful about insisting it was only to believers.

The next verse brings up eternal security just fine;

21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

What needs to be seen and said, I believe, is that after no other words to the lost, in the first three chapters of Revelation, there isn't even a vague allusion from the Bible, of even an ambiguous reference to a lost person.

You know how we know that narrative is an addition from men?

They also add, "heart" to the text without flinching. I have to remind us that their are warnings against that brand of tomfoolery.

When this came up before, I noticed that some Calvinists on the internet, including some good ones, ridiculed this passage as an invitation. I just noticed that almost all of the solid Calvinist preachers from the Puritan era through the era of Bonar and Spurgeon DID use it as an invitation for non-believers. Make of it what you will

I know.

God heard their pretty little heads making this stuff up.

But, what if the lost "heard" them and thought they "opened their heart" and that "all was well with their soul", but remained lost?

Since then churches and pulpits and a lot of the already lost world have gotten full of lost "believers", with this kind of thing of Easy-believism, Decisional non-Regeneration, and the 'sinner's prayer', etc., etc.

Where else do you think 'liberals' (those that are still lost) were mass-produced, to give us the Centuries-long 'Christain' apostasy?

Where the people's 'hearts' are not just far from God, but as far as they can get?

That is where God finds lost souls, not waiting for them to turn a non-existent handle.

As you probably noticed, I see promoting things not in the Book, such as a lost sinner overpowering Jesus with their 'rejection of Him at their whim' and 'allowing Him to do something by their permission', as scripturally taboo and Spiritually impossible.

We have folks on here that tell me that the lost soul being called 'dead', by God, means 'alive', if they care to.

They are boring me, but it is ETERNALLY more serious than that.

Thank you, for your participation and indulgence.

I noticed you weren't even talking to me.

Good eye. Needs some work.

Thanks again.

 

[Van]

I see we are on page two with Reformed Theology posters trying to say Revelation 3:20 does not actually mean what it says. Jesus is not asking for the lost to hear His message, because according to Reformed Theology the lost cannot hear His message, and further, Jesus is not asking the lost to "open the door" because the lost according to Reformed Theology cannot act affirmatively to Christ's message.

Thus the nullification brigade is out in force.

Ok, all you Sunday School Graduates, did Jesus share meals with only saints, or did He dine with sinners? Sinners!

What did Jesus say the lost must do? Believe in the One that sent Him, and believe in Him? You bet!

So what if the lost can hear the spiritual milk of the gospel, and can respond affirmatively and believe with all their heart? Jesus promises to come in!

 

[JonC]

This is a true theological statement. I just think it is a proper use of scriptures like Revelation 3:20, to take them just as they are written, and if the Holy Spirit makes use of it and applies it to your heart then take it as a warning and repent. It may well be that part of being elect is that you are concerned about being elect and heed warnings to avoid lukewarmness.



That's a good point. To me, part of proper exegesis is to look for what isn't there. If the passage is ambiguous about being to believers or doesn't bring up eternal security then I would be careful about insisting it was only to believers. When this came up before, I noticed that some Calvinists on the internet, including some good ones, ridiculed this passage as an invitation. I just noticed that almost all of the solid Calvinist preachers from the Puritan era through the era of Bonar and Spurgeon DID use it as an invitation for non-believers. Make of it what you will.

Long ago I viewed it as an invitation, but for quite awhile I didn't (I thought men like Spurgeon had misused the verse).

BUT having reexamined it when @tyndale1946 posted the thread I can see I had been wrong for years.

This is like the passage in Hebrews warning of falling away as a real possibility. Whomever one believes the audience to be has an impact on what is taught.

 

[Alan Gross]

So what if

You lost me with your gratuitous surmisings, supposing that something is true without having evidence to confirm it.

And, with the soul left in the balance, you better get your story ETERNALLY correct and genuinely confirmed, or that soul could be left wanting.

God's Business is that serious.

People need to take Eternal Life seriously enough to agree with God and know they have Assurance which is evidenced by Worshipping Him.

trying to say Revelation 3:20 does not actually mean what it says

Then, if we agree with God and look for what Revelation 3:20 says, knowing it means what it says, where is the explicit citation informing us that Jesus is addressing someone that is lost?

Or for that matter, anywhere in the entire chapter 3?


King James Bible
Message to the Church in Sardis

1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Message to the Church in Philadelphia

7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Colossians 2:1-5)

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

(Alan's note: in Context the verse before

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

(Alan's note: in Context the verse before

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The so-called allusion for Evangelists to adapt a picture they have seen painted by some Artist INTO this passage(?) always include the addition of a "heart"(?), "handle"(?), and "no handle"(?), And JESUS BEING EFFECTIVELY REJECTED (?) all of which ARE INSTRUMENTAL to THEIR ADULTERATION of GOD'S WORD

...and all of which are conspicuously missing from Romans 3:20 and the entire chapter, also.

So, if you have received and heard;

Revelation 3:3; "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent."

That IS in The PASSAGE!

I would like to sympathize with those who get the confirmation of their doctrine from an extra- Biblical picture, however:

Least we forget. ( How could the carnal flesh of perhaps good, but weak men's minds play into the hands of Satan so easily and "forget"?)

Revelation 22:18; For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[JonC]

The next verse brings up eternal security just fine;

21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Looks like Jesus is not declaring that all will overcome (which would make the verse meaningless).

 

[DaveXR650]

This is like the passage in Hebrews warning of falling away as a real possibility. Whomever one believes the audience to be has an impact on what is taught.

Right. And you always have your theology and your confessions, if you use them, to help you keep from getting off track by using an illustration. Does anyone really think that John Owen believed in a weak, pathetic, figure of Christ hoping that you might sovereignly deign to let Him into your heart? Maybe he was just trying to illustrate just how much of a condescension and tender act of love it was for the Christ to even interact with us humans at all. If you really think about that it is hard to paint a word picture that shows what that means so yeah, I excuse Owen for doing it.

 

[Alan Gross]

Looks like Jesus is not declaring that all will overcome (which would make the verse meaningless).

2:4 "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

(For leaving their first love Jesus would be Removing the Candlestick of God's Presence with them in one of His churches, like these are)

2:7b "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

(He that overcometh would be Blessed to sup with Jesus, for Him to have fellowship with His saved children/ to have communion with them being members of one of His New Testament churches, like these all are)

which is in the midst of the paradise of God;
as the tree of life was in the garden of Eden, ( Genesis 2:9 ) . The Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions read, "the paradise of my God"; the God of Christ, as well as of his people; and by which may be meant, the church on earth, (just like the kind that these 7 churches of Asia were) which is as a paradise, ( Song of Solomon 4:12 ) ; in the midst of which Christ is, affording his gracious presence, and reaching forth his grace, and the benefits of it, to his people; (in His churches) (See Gill on 2 Corinthians 12:4), said to be of God, because it is of his preparing, and where he dwells, and in the midst of which Christ, the Tree of life, is; ( in JESUS' churches) and this shows, that he is to be come at by faith, and his fruit to be eaten, and lived upon; and he is to be beheld and enjoyed by all his saints, as he is now, and will be more perfectly hereafter.

His children have the devil to overcome;

2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Overcome or Jesus will fight against them, Providencially.

2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Overcome Jezebel and;

2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star.

or He will not give him power over the nations:, etc.
...

Repent of their not perfect works and watch and overcome these things or He will come as a thief.

3:2b; for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;

Overcome the world and hold fast;

3;10b; I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Then Jesus will Bless them with His Presence in their church assembly;

3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

If any man of these church members repent of being lukewarm and overcome their lukewarmness where Jesus can sup, fellowship, and commune with them in His church there Jesus will grant to sit with me in my throne, settled together in Heavenly Places ruling and reigning with Him, Spiritually through prayer to Him.



If any man of these church members DOES NOT repent of being lukewarm and THEREFORE DOES NOT overcome their lukewarmness where Jesus can sup, fellowship, and commune with them in His church there Jesus will NOT BLESS THEM PRAYER POWER and grant them to sit with me in my throne, settled together in Heavenly Places ruling and reigning with Him, Spiritually through prayer to Him.

That is it. Nowhere speaking of salvation, gaining or losing it.

I don't know how you say that the passage could be meaningless.

3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.