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Ten differences between Catholics and Non-Catholics
- Thread starter Salty
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NO... Because Heaven is not by denomination or race, its by Gods merciful grace... How can it be Heaven if there are divisions?... All of Gods children get there the same way by Jesus Christ alone... Brother Glen
YES - it was a great discussion. (and why did you mention race -??)
Not saying that I agree with his beliefs - but he did explain the Catholic side - which can help me when I witness to a RC.
The biggest point is # 10 where he explained how salvation is constantly being earned.
and they do use the passage in James 2:24 (not by faith only)
The one big mistake he made is that he stated Protestants teach that you only need to believe in Jesus. He left out the part of repenting!
Not saying that I agree with his beliefs - but he did explain the Catholic side - which can help me when I witness to a RC.
The biggest point is # 10 where he explained how salvation is constantly being earned.
and they do use the passage in James 2:24 (not by faith only)
The one big mistake he made is that he stated Protestants teach that you only need to believe in Jesus. He left out the part of repenting!
Many Baptists don't see the Supper as "only a memorial" either.
Where most Baptist would not believe in The Real Presence of Christ in The Supper as Lutheran, Anglicans, Orthodox and Catholics do, most I know of believe in the Spiritual Presence of Christ in The Meal.
The demons believe in Jesus, right?
The Church is accused of teaching earning your salvation, but this is an empty accusation. This idea has been consistently condemned by the Church. Here is what Catholic I respect says about 'salvation by works'. 'Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands (Mt 6:1-21, 1 Cor 3:8, 13-15) and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey (Mt 25:34-40, Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10, Jas 1:12). But even our obedience is impossible without God’s grace; even our good works are God’s gift (Rom 5:5, Phil 2:13). This is the real biblical plan of salvation.'
Yep. We believe the real presence of Christ is in the congregation but not in a unique way in the elements of the meal.
But, many Baptists do view the Lord's Supper as merely symbolic (unfortunately).
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Not in the way the Reformers meant "believe" in Jesus. Demons don't trust in Jesus to save them.
If that is really what Roman Catholicism teaches about works then they are VERY close to Protestantism. I challenge that as being mainstream Catholic teaching. I do think that the differences in that area are more complicated that some make it. Jonathan Edwards believed that when a person is regenerated there indeed is a principle of new life and new nature that necessarily leads to good works. And he is accused of leaning towards Rome on this. Richard Baxter had works as part of justification at least at some point in his life. And the Reformers all taught that justification is by faith alone but a faith that is never alone. When you really look at that it does not minimize works as necessary for salvation. The real difference is that the Protestants believe that there is an imputed righteousness that comes by faith alone that is the only source of "merit" in God's view. Are you saying that Roman Catholicism teaches that works supply no part in actual justification - but that it is by faith alone? Has the Council of Trent been rescinded?
In fact, the Council of Trent condemned anyone who taught that we can save ourselves or who taught even that God helps us do what we could do for ourselves. The Church teaches that we can be saved only by God’s grace. We don’t disagree about the primary role that faith plays. Following Paul, the Catholic Church teaches that justification comes by faith. Only it says that it doesn’t come through faith alone. If you look carefully at Paul’s writings, you will notice that he never says that our righteousness comes from faith alone—only that it comes from faith apart from works.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Indeed it does.
That's only true if by "God's grace" you mean that the works you do are works done by God's grace. And I don't really have a problem with that either. The Catholic church does not teach faith, as opposed to works and contrasted to works like Paul did.
And I should point out that Canon 24 says that "If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and not increased before God, through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, not the cause of it's increase, let him be anathema."
This is important because EWTN and the Catholic apologetic sites like to play shell games with this stuff and make it seem we are very close. They have a point if by close you just mean the practical day to day religion of laymen. But read Canon 24 above. Anyone who says, "of course works are necessary, because it's an absolute impossibility that a saved person will not do good works as fruit of his salvation" - well, he is still anathema.
I personally believe, and get a lot of flack for it, that there are saved Catholic folks still in the Roman Catholic church. But if you read the Canons of Trent it is very clear that according to official Catholic Church teaching ALL Calvinists and all Baptists that believe their baptism to be true baptism are not saved. I know a lot of average Catholic folks don't believe that but that is the teaching. Post no. 7 is a good example of the shell game that is played. I hope that is your personal view, but that is not the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Yes. I don't think he emphasized though that Martin's original complaint was mainly about selling indulgences in the church and other improprieties. I think it was almost a year later that Luther felt it was time to split completely from the Roman church. I'm not really up on all this so someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
Well, all I know, is that I was at a Catholic funeral and the priest stated "We know Ann is in Heaven because she was baptized".
So, Walter -- is that priest correct?
I have heard priests and nuns make incorrect statements about Catholic teaching. If that person was baptized and never repented of their sins then they are not saved. There are a whole lot of cultural Catholics that if they died today would not be saved.
I'm saying that 'this priest' doesn't know who is saved and who is not. Only God knows the heart of anyone. I know of a Baptist pastor who baptized his son for the fourth time in his life because 'all those other times he professed his faith, he really didn't mean it'. I find that to be problematic as well.
I have been on this board for years, Salty, and I know you know what Catholics believe about baptism. As Catholics we believe that Baptism is the door we walk through as a matter of fact, to be saved. And everyone, every single person is called to repent and be baptized. And that’s our job is to share that because if we don’t believe that, we don’t really have a mission. But we do have a mission. Our mission is to go out to all the nations and call people to repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
You are saying that it is Baptism and faith
The priest said Baptism sent her to Heaven.
So if the Priest said only Baptism - and you state Baptism & repentance - then at least one of you are wrong.
Why are you unwilling to say that Priest was wrong?
& what you said about the 4 baptisms of the PK - I would tend to agree with you.
Methinks that child - at least the first time - was extremely young ....
Myself- I tend to be careful about baptism very young children
No, I think in the post after you initially said what the priest had stated that I said I have heard priests and nuns say things that are not in line with Church teaching. The priest IS wrong if he believes that baptism absent of repentance saves you. As I said, there are many cultural Catholics who if they died today would not be saved.
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