Why Do Conditionalists Contradict Themselves and Pray to God for Salvation?

[KenH]

A doctrine is not true because I believe it or because you believe it, it is true only if God says it! I do not ask whether you believe what I preach, perhaps you do not. But I ask you to search the Scriptures and determine whether these things be so. I am not afraid to submit my belief in God's immutable sovereignty, man's total fall and ruin, God's elective grace, Christ's effectual atonement, the Spirit's invincible call, and the perseverance of the sheep to the word of God.

We say Amen to this word, and while this message is limited, the sovereignty of God is not. The scriptures tell us that he is sovereign over all. By himself He created this universe, fashioning it according to His own purpose. This includes man and all God's dealings with him.

He is over the nations, creating them, and has destroyed them according to His will. Nebuchadnezzar, an absolute monarch, when boasting of his self-made kingdom rather than give God the glory, was reduced to a near animal. After his understanding returned, he gave testimony to God as over all. God raises up kingdoms and puts them down.

He is sovereign in salvation, having chosen His people, sending His Son to die for them, and then calling them out of the world. He gives them eternal life, and they shall never perish under His guarding hand.

Many Christians have doubts about God's sovereignty. Yet there is one aspect of the Christian life where they profess, maybe unknowingly, that God is sovereign. They may say, as many do, "God has done all He can do, now the rest is up to you." How contradictory! They may stand on their feet and deny this blessed, comforting, enabling doctrine, but when they bend the knees in prayer, asking God to save, do they not realize they are calling on a sovereign God, who only has the right and the ability to save? Are they not asking their limited God to go beyond His limitation? The question is, If God has done all that He can do, why pray to Him? But we pray knowing He is the only one who can do what man cannot otherwise do. This power belongs to God, and not man.

- Henry Mahan

Source: The Sovereignty of God (mountainretreatorg.net)

 

[37818]

A doctrine should be belived because it is actually true.

One's faith does not cause anything to be true, except what one thinks is true.

 

[KenH]

A doctrine should be belived because it is actually true.

A doctrine should be believed because God said it.

 

[37818]

A doctrine should be believed because God said it.

John 17:17, ". . . Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. . . ."

Romans 3:4, ". . . let God be true, but every man a liar; . . ."

Luke 4:4, ". . . And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. . . ."

 

[Marooncat79]

Why ask a God who is impotent to save, to save you, a friend or a family member?

seemingly, God is dependent upon them to change their minds - which is not what we read in scripture.

Why pray for missions and missionaries if it’s all relative to the heart and mind of man and not God?

 

[Silverhair]

The real question is why do Calvinists pray at all? Why pray for the lost, why have outreach programs? Actually why did Christ have to go to the cross since according to Calvinists only the one's chosen before the foundation of the world or could be saved.

 

[Marooncat79]

Why?

It’s one of those crazy ways that God allows us to see His hand at work in salvation

ie answered prayer

 

[Silverhair]

Why?

It’s one of those crazy ways that God allows us to see His hand at work in salvation

ie answered prayer

You are just avoiding the obvious failure in your theology.

There is no need of salvation through faith in the risen Christ in Calvinism.

Your answer would work for a non-calvinist but for the Calvinist not so much.

So want to try that answer again and this time hold true to your theology.

 

[Marooncat79]

Why pray. Because God commands us to

 

[Silverhair]

Why pray. Because God commands us to

Still not dealing with the problem that Calvinism gives you. Under your deterministic theology since God has determined all things why would you pray? As I said before, as a non-calvinist when I pray I believe that God will answer them and that prayer actually does have meaning.

Actually your answer shows that your Calvinistic theology is false. Why would God have to command you to pray since He has total absolute control over all you think or do. Your Calvinism is full of contradictions.

 

[DaveXR650]

The question is, If God has done all that He can do, why pray to Him?

The real question is why do Calvinists pray at all? Why pray for the lost, why have outreach programs? Actually why did Christ have to go to the cross since according to Calvinists only the one's chosen before the foundation of the world or could be saved.

Both of those are good points. You can take anything to a ridiculous extreme with enough logical leaping.

 

[tyndale1946]

Both of those are good points. You can take anything to a ridiculous extreme with enough logical leaping.

Does God need a man to save one?... He sent one!... His name is Jesus Christ!.. Who alone saved all the Father gave him... I'm not a Calvinist but I do believe in the Sovereignty of God alone... You want to see, how I see election?... Its Biblical!... Anyone disagree with it?... Brother Glen

Revelation7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If I thought that God had left mankind to his own devices, that He didn't love anyone enough actually to save them, then there would be no point in praying.. Frankly, if I thought it was all up to me as to who got saved, I would be too scared to preach or witness in case I said something that would put people off.
But knowing that God is sovereign and outside of time - that He bids to pray and will have heard my prayer in eternity - and that, as the Puritans used to say, He can draw a straight line with a bent stick, I pray according to God's will; that His glory will be seen in the salvation of sinners. I preach and witness, as best I can, praying that God can, if He will, take my poor loaves and fishes and do something wonderful with them. If I don't pray, then God will have seen my lack of prayer in eternity, and acted accordingly. 'You do not have because you do not ask God' (James 4:2).

 

[DaveXR650]

Does God need a man to save one?... He sent one!... His name is Jesus Christ!.. Who alone saved all the Father gave him... I'm not a Calvinist but I do believe in the Sovereignty of God alone... You want to see, how I see election?... Its Biblical!... Anyone disagree with it?... Brother Glen

That's all very true but what I mean by extreme logical leaping is when someone takes election to the point where it is no longer allowed to encourage people to repent and believe the gospel. On the other extreme would be if you say God has done all He can and now He has to sit back and see if anyone is indeed going to repent and believe the gospel. To say you have to repent and believe the gospel or to say that no one is saved without faith does not in any way deny election - unless you have made extreme leaps of logic.

 

[Silverhair]

If I thought that God had left mankind to his own devices, that He didn't love anyone enough actually to save them, then there would be no point in praying.. Frankly, if I thought it was all up to me as to who got saved, I would be too scared to preach or witness in case I said something that would put people off.
But knowing that God is sovereign and outside of time - that He bids to pray and will have heard my prayer in eternity - and that, as the Puritans used to say, He can draw a straight line with a bent stick, I pray according to God's will; that His glory will be seen in the salvation of sinners. I preach and witness, as best I can, praying that God can, if He will, take my poor loaves and fishes and do something wonderful with them. If I don't pray, then God will have seen my lack of prayer in eternity, and acted accordingly. If I thought that God had left mankind to his own devices, that He didn't love anyone enough actually to save them, then there would be no point in praying "you do not have because you do not ask" (James 4:2).

Martin you still did not deal with the question. As a Calvinist who holds to the total absolute sovereignty of God in that He has determined all things, WHY PRAY, WHY DID CHRIST HAVE TO GO TO THE CROSS?
As a non-calvinist I can honestly answer those questions from scripture. And those answers will fit with my theology. As a Calvinist you can not honestly answer those questions from scripture and have them fit with your theology.

Look at some of the things you said in your post

"If I thought that God had left mankind to his own devices, that He didn't love anyone enough actually to save them, then there would be no point in praying"
Under Calvinism what point is there in praying, are you saying that your prayers will influence God?

"I would be too scared to preach or witness in case I said something that would put people off."
How could that happen since God has determined all things and has pre-elected all that will be saved. How could your bad preaching alter what God has chosen?

You quote James 4:2 "you do not have because you do not ask". How do your prayers in time influence your deterministic God? You are very inconsistent with your theological view.

 

[Silverhair]

That's all very true but what I mean by extreme logical leaping is when someone takes election to the point where it is no longer allowed to encourage people to repent and believe the gospel. On the other extreme would be if you say God has done all He can and now He has to sit back and see if anyone is indeed going to repent and believe the gospel. To say you have to repent and believe the gospel or to say that no one is saved without faith does not in any way deny election - unless you have made extreme leaps of logic.

Dave God's plan for election is clear in the bible, those that believe in His son will be part of the elect.

 

[tyndale1946]

That's all very true but what I mean by extreme logical leaping is when someone takes election to the point where it is no longer allowed to encourage people to repent and believe the gospel. On the other extreme would be if you say God has done all He can and now He has to sit back and see if anyone is indeed going to repent and believe the gospel. To say you have to repent and believe the gospel or to say that no one is saved without faith does not in any way deny election - unless you have made extreme leaps of logic.

Dave... So feel free to jump in because I'm starting a new OP on prayer in the C/A Forum and its a simple question Can you pray a man to Heaven?... Brother Glen

 

[Martin Marprelate]

"If I thought that God had left mankind to his own devices, that He didn't love anyone enough actually to save them, then there would be no point in praying"
Under Calvinism what point is there in praying, are you saying that your prayers will influence God?

Read my post.

"I would be too scared to preach or witness in case I said something that would put people off."
How could that happen since God has determined all things and has pre-elected all that will be saved. How could your bad preaching alter what God has chosen?

Read my post.

You quote James 4:2 "you do not have because you do not ask". How do your prayers in time influence your deterministic God? You are very inconsistent with your theological view.

Read my post.
There really is no point in my replying further, so I choose not to do so.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave God's plan for election is clear in the bible, those that believe in His son will be part of the elect.

Those that believe on His Son are the elect. But it is essential that they believe and therefore faith is a "condition". Calvinists understand though that God does not have to sit and wait to see what you are going to do. The Holy Spirit will work with you and bring you to faith. He will not believe for you. But you do not have in your own natural inclination the tendency to come to Christ by faith. The very idea of that seems ridiculous to natural men. They might be willing to try to straighten up their lives, or go something good for someone else or even subscribe to a set of religious principles or dogmas, or submit to baptism or any number of things.

 

[Silverhair]

Read my post.

Read my post.

Read my post.
There really is no point in my replying further, so I choose not to do so.

I did read your post and that was why my reply. As normal Calvinist's try to walk on both sides of the street at the same time.