Why Do Conditionalists Contradict Themselves and Pray to God for Salvation?

[DaveXR650]

The rich man went away sorrowful in spite of the Lord loving him. Why? It seems you are missing the aim of the teaching of Jesus in this narrative.

OK. That IS a good point. There are a lot of points in that narrative which we probably shouldn't get in to here. I was thinking in terms of your last statement because in fact this narrative is a favorite of Calvinists, like MacArthur. And one of the reasons is that you see Jesus looking into the young man's heart and hitting him in a convicting way with his own depravity. There is not a set of general propositions set fourth that the man can choose to believe or not.
But I agree that our interactions with God, with hearing His word, and with the promptings of the Holy Spirit are true, real time, and actual interactions and the decisions we make in all these cases are of real consequence. We are not acting as puppets. This puts me at odds with other Calvinists on this site.

I like Philippians chapter 3 where Paul gives his own testimony. There is a constant moving back and forth between the idea of him actively following Christ and pressing on and with the idea of his understanding that he was "apprehended" by Christ. Both are true.

 

[KenH]

our interactions with God, with hearing His word, and with the promptings of the Holy Spirit are true, real time, and actual interactions and the decisions we make in all these cases are of real consequence.

True. God's Word teaches that God is totally absolutely sovereign and that man is totally absolutely responsible.

 

[JD731]

OK. That IS a good point. There are a lot of points in that narrative which we probably shouldn't get in to here. I was thinking in terms of your last statement because in fact this narrative is a favorite of Calvinists, like MacArthur. And one of the reasons is that you see Jesus looking into the young man's heart and hitting him in a convicting way with his own depravity. There is not a set of general propositions set fourth that the man can choose to believe or not.
But I agree that our interactions with God, with hearing His word, and with the promptings of the Holy Spirit are true, real time, and actual interactions and the decisions we make in all these cases are of real consequence. We are not acting as puppets. This puts me at odds with other Calvinists on this site.

I like Philippians chapter 3 where Paul gives his own testimony. There is a constant moving back and forth between the idea of him actively following Christ and pressing on and with the idea of his understanding that he was "apprehended" by Christ. Both are true.

The truth is that Jesus did in fact love him but you will notice which of the commandments Jesus mentioned. They represented the outward forms of religion that can be observed by others. The ones he did not mention is the inward forms, such as loving God with all his heart and soul, These could be observed by God alone, as is proven in the text. God, Jesus, commended the disciples for doing what the rich ruler was not willing to do because of what he loved more. This violated the first commandment of loving God with ALL ones heart.

Jesus compared his disciples with the rich man by using the singular pronoun "you." Each man will be evaluated by God for their motivation. God loved us first and we must love God back. He will give eternal life to those who do. The rich man loved riches more than he loved God, and at the crossroad, chose riches over God.

In Philippians, Paul gives a personal testimony of his own crossroads decision. The apprehension that he speaks of in the text is one after his choice and is defined in verse 10.

Unlike the rich man, he forsook his own way, calling Jesus Lord.

Compare the texts. I will quote it for you.

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Like the rich man, doing all that law stuff did not give him eternal life, but from the point of the encounter with Jesus their stories are far different and Paul did apprend what he sought for in Christ.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

The decision a man makes at the crossroads makes all the difference.

 

[DaveXR650]

The decision a man makes at the crossroads makes all the difference.

It does. But in Paul's case the same man went from hating all Christians to being the most ardent one to ever live and there is no evidence of this occurring because of a time of self evaluation. It was the result of a crisis done to him. You do have Paul exercising his will but something has clearly changed his will. His will was not a self made thing based on the sovereignty of his own decision making power. I just think that this outside action happens to all of us who are saved but of course our stories, unlike Paul's are not noteworthy enough to be written about. I don't minimize the importance of the "decision". I do put a high value on the work of the Holy Spirit, even to the point of a creative or regenerative action, and I put a low esteem on a man's free will if left to himself.

 

[JD731]

It does. But in Paul's case the same man went from hating all Christians to being the most ardent one to ever live and there is no evidence of this occurring because of a time of self evaluation. It was the result of a crisis done to him. You do have Paul exercising his will but something has clearly changed his will. His will was not a self made thing based on the sovereignty of his own decision making power. I just think that this outside action happens to all of us who are saved but of course our stories, unlike Paul's are not noteworthy enough to be written about. I don't minimize the importance of the "decision". I do put a high value on the work of the Holy Spirit, even to the point of a creative or regenerative action, and I put a low esteem on a man's free will if left to himself.

We were not introduced to Paul on the Damascus Road and Paul was not introduced to Jesus on the Damascus Road. He had a history of persecuting Christians' at this time and he surely noticed the attitude of their suffering was at least unexpected. But the greatest thing to effect him toward Christ is the incident with the killing of Stephan, which he at least over saw, if not initiate. He watched him die as a martyr. This no doubt had a tremendous influence on him and I expect it was not a far piece from conviction to conversion. His devotion to the Jewish faith was unequalled he said and he would have known about all the prophesies of the Messiah of Israel.Our Lord did not force him to call him Lord when Israel after the flesh was looking for a King. The lights came on for Paul, so to speak.

 

[KenH]

The lights came on for Paul, so to speak.

Who turned the lights on?

 

[JD731]

Who turned the lights on?

Faith comes by hearing the word of God and if you read Acts 7 you have one of the longest sermons in the Bible from Stephen. Psalm 119 says "the entrance of thy words giveth light, it giveth understanding to the simple.

1 + 1 = 2. Logic 101.

 

[KenH]

Faith comes by hearing the word of God and if you read Acts 7 you have one of the longest sermons in the Bible from Stephen. Psalm 119 says "the entrance of thy words giveth light, it giveth understanding to the simple.

1 + 1 = 2. Logic 101.

So it is your contention that Saul turned on his own lights, is that a fair characterization of your position?

 

[JD731]

So it is your contention that Saul turned on his own lights, is that a fair characterization of your position?

Jesus was not in Jerusalem in Acts 7 when Stephan preached the gospel of Christ. The words were light that gives understanding. This is the rule for this age. One must hear the gospel and get understanding of the word before his encounter with Jesus Christ and conversion. Paul did not present the person of Jesus as he saw him on the Damascus road to anyone, but he preached the gospel to every one. Jesus Christ showed himself to Paul because it is God's own rule that an apostle must be an eye witness to the resurrected Lord Jesus and Paul is chosen to be the apostle to the gentiles in a belated fashion.

God has a plan and because you cannot figure it out makes it no less a wonderful and glorious and God honoring and all wise plan.

 

[KenH]

Jesus was not in Jerusalem in Acts 7 when Stephan preached the gospel of Christ. The words were light that gives understanding. This is the rule for this age. One must hear the gospel and get understanding of the word before his encounter with Jesus Christ and conversion. Paul did not present the person of Jesus as he saw him on the Damascus road to anyone, but he preached the gospel to every one. Jesus Christ showed himself to Paul because it is God's own rule that an apostle must be an eye witness to the resurrected Lord Jesus and Paul is chosen to be the apostle to the gentiles in a belated fashion.

God has a plan and because you cannot figure it out makes it no less a wonderful and glorious and God honoring and all wise plan.

So what that a "yes" or a "no"?

 

[JD731]

So what that a "yes" or a "no"?

That is a no. No matter who speaks the inspired word, it is the word of God, if indeed it is his word. In Paul's case it was Stephan and others. One cannot be saved by a light on a highway and by asking someone his name. There must be understanding. That is the purpose of biblical preaching, something your crowd knows nothing about. The things you preach are not from God and your preachers bear false witness and confuses understanding. There are things one must understand about Jesus in order to be converted and it does not involve magic.

 

[KenH]

That is a no. No matter who speaks the inspired word, it is the word of God, if indeed it is his word. In Paul's case it was Stephan and others. One cannot be saved by a light on a highway and by asking someone his name. There must be understanding. That is the purpose of biblical preaching, something your crowd knows nothing about. The things you preach are not from God and your preachers bear false witness and confuses understanding. There are things one must understand about Jesus in order to be converted and it does not involve magic.

 

[DaveXR650]

But the greatest thing to effect him toward Christ is the incident with the killing of Stephan, which he at least over saw, if not initiate. He watched him die as a martyr. This no doubt had a tremendous influence on him and I expect it was not a far piece from conviction to conversion.

I don't know if you can dogmatically assert that but personally I think you are right in this. It's a good example of God using the evil actions of men for a good purpose too.

His devotion to the Jewish faith was unequalled he said and he would have known about all the prophesies of the Messiah of Israel.

I certainly agree with that and I think we are given insight into how God prepares someone for His service. It reminds me of the way Moses was uniquely prepared for his role.

.Our Lord did not force him to call him Lord when Israel after the flesh was looking for a King. The lights came on for Paul, so to speak.

And I agree he wasn't forced. But the passage clearly indicated where the cause of the change in Paul is I think. "The lights came on" is a good way to put it. God uses "means" in a person's salvation. And circumstances. It's a mystery how this works exactly. If you go too far in this being dependent upon your free will you still have the problem of dealing with the possible unfairness of opportunities and the fact that everyone doesn't get a "bright light" shown upon them equally. It's more likely that we are in reality totally dependent upon God for our salvation. But we need to respond with all our attention and all our might to any light or conviction we receive. Beyond that I really don't know how all this works.

 

[Silverhair]

And I agree he wasn't forced. But the passage clearly indicated where the cause of the change in Paul is I think. "The lights came on" is a good way to put it. God uses "means" in a person's salvation. And circumstances. It's a mystery how this works exactly. If you go too far in this being dependent upon your free will you still have the problem of dealing with the possible unfairness of opportunities and the fact that everyone doesn't get a "bright light" shown upon them equally. It's more likely that we are in reality totally dependent upon God for our salvation. But we need to respond with all our attention and all our might to any light or conviction we receive. Beyond that I really don't know how all this works.

Dave I believe our gracious God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion. Jesus came to be a light to this world. So while all are not given an equal amount of light we are all responsible for how we deal with the light we are given. John 12:46

It seems you are confusing the ability to come to Christ Jesus in faith with actually being saved. Asking for forgiveness no more merits that forgiveness than the prodigal son’s return home merited the reception he received from his father.

In the same way faith in Christ Jesus is not a work, it is not meritorious but it is God's condition for salvation.

 

[KenH]

to aid humanity

"to aid"????

Psalms 110:3 says, "Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power." It does not say, "Thy people shall be aided in the day of Thy power."

Jonah 2:9 says that "Salvation is of the Lord." It does not say, "Salvation is aided by the Lord."

Matthew 1:21 says, "Thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins." It does not say, "for He will aid His people to be saved from their sins."

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave I believe our gracious God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion. Jesus came to be a light to this world. So while all are not given an equal amount of light we are all responsible for how we deal with the light we are given. John 12:46

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit works directly on a person for their conversion? In other words does the Holy Spirit Himself actually convict and draw or by conscience to you mean the common sense that we have as a species? I think the Holy Spirit is directly involved in an individual's salvation even though the means are also real. And I believe that the "help" of the Holy Spirit is decisive in a persons salvation and it is sovereign in application - not equal in operation to everyone.

It seems you are confusing the ability to come to Christ Jesus in faith with actually being saved. Asking for forgiveness no more merits that forgiveness than the prodigal son’s return home merited the reception he received from his father.

I have said before that asking for forgiveness, if you're really just asking for forgiveness is not a work nor does it supply any merit. Is there a real concern that some evangelistic groups get close to making a prayer into a little mini-sacrament of it's own? I know for a fact that is done and we should guard against giving the impression that there is a prayer that causes this all to occur. And we need to make sure that we out of zeal do not confuse "getting someone to make a declaration" of belief with someone actually coming to faith in Christ. If you are persuasive and witty you could sometimes get someone to make such a declaration who doesn't really believe. You have not only done no good but have done great harm in that you sow confusion and maybe fatal false assurance.

I part company with extreme determinists in that as I said above, it is possible that misguided efforts can do real true harm and you would be responsible. I also think that making a declaration of belief which may not be real is not the same as coming by faith. This is very important: if you come in belief or if you come by faith, you do not need to worry that you may not have been born again. Being born again affects your will and if you want to come and follow Christ you have been born again. The precise timing and order are not to be worried about. I don't see anywhere in scripture where we are warned against coming to Christ and believing because we want to or because we choose to. Like I said the Spirit works on our will, not to save us against our will.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit works directly on a person for their conversion? In other words does the Holy Spirit Himself actually convict and draw or by conscience to you mean the common sense that we have as a species? I think the Holy Spirit is directly involved in an individual's salvation even though the means are also real. And I believe that the "help" of the Holy Spirit is decisive in a persons salvation and it is sovereign in application - not equal in operation to everyone.

I think John 16:8-9 will show you my view. That is what I mean by our conscience. And as we know Christ Himself will draw all men to Himself through the gospel message. John 12:32 Having said this it is still the person that has to trust as God will not do it for them.
You wrote regarding the work of the Holy Spirit "not equal in operation to everyone" but would this not contradict what God says in
1Timothy 2:3-4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Since this is the desire of God then why would you think that He would not be inclined to deal with each person equally? That would make God arbitrary in His dealing with man would it not.

I have said before that asking for forgiveness, if you're really just asking for forgiveness is not a work nor does it supply any merit. Is there a real concern that some evangelistic groups get close to making a prayer into a little mini-sacrament of it's own? I know for a fact that is done and we should guard against giving the impression that there is a prayer that causes this all to occur. And we need to make sure that we out of zeal do not confuse "getting someone to make a declaration" of belief with someone actually coming to faith in Christ. If you are persuasive and witty you could sometimes get someone to make such a declaration who doesn't really believe. You have not only done no good but have done great harm in that you sow confusion and maybe fatal false assurance.

I part company with extreme determinists in that as I said above, it is possible that misguided efforts can do real true harm and you would be responsible. I also think that making a declaration of belief which may not be real is not the same as coming by faith. This is very important: if you come in belief or if you come by faith, you do not need to worry that you may not have been born again. Being born again affects your will and if you want to come and follow Christ you have been born again. The precise timing and order are not to be worried about. I don't see anywhere in scripture where we are warned against coming to Christ and believing because we want to or because we choose to. Like I said the Spirit works on our will, not to save us against our will.

Now if we could get some of the more extreme individuals on here to understand what the bible actually said we would have less rancor on this board.

 

[DaveXR650]

The Philippian jailer in Acts is a good example of what I'm trying to explain. If you notice, because of what happened to him, which was totally the work of God, he falls down before Paul and Silas and says "What must I do to be saved"? Paul tells him he has to believe. I don't know if he was "saved" at that moment. We know from the passage that Paul explained more fully to the jailer the information about Christ that he needed but notice that the jailers mindset had already been changed, drastically, before he could receive this information. The jailer wasn't saved until he believed but a change in him, totally not of his own will or doing, had just happened.

It's quite possible that if you knew the jailer and talked to him later and asked him what has happened to him he might say "I believed in Christ, that's was happened". Well no one would want to rebuke him for saying that because he's just relaying as best he could what he observed. But a Calvinist, or even very moderate four point Baptists would insist that it was totally God who brought the jailer to salvation. Belief is a "condition" in that it must be present or you have no salvation. It is not a "condition" in that the plan of salvation is presented and the person, on his own, after evaluating the information decides whether to believe or not. And his own decision of faith is the deciding factor. It is not a "condition" in that way. If it was left to us in that way, our natural inclination would be to do like most people and not heed any of this gospel message.

 

[Silverhair]

It is not a "condition" in that the plan of salvation is presented and the person, on his own, after evaluating the information decides whether to believe or not.

Dave that is just what the bible tells us is the condition, man must decide based upon the information that he has.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

What do you think this verse is saying, did God decide for them?

What about this verse
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

A man's faith is the condition that God has set before He will save him.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

A man's faith is the condition that God has set before He will save him.

If that is the case then faith is indeed a work inasmuch as it is something the sinner has to do in order to be saved, a sort of celestial game show. According to your view, God doesn't love anyone enough to save him but makes him work out for himself what he is supposed to believe with faithful preachers on one side giving him good information, and false teachers and the world on the other side trying to lead him away. The winner gains an eternal stay in a luxury mansion (of which there are many) and the loser ...... er ...... doesn't. God doesn't mind who wins and who loses.

I don't think so. I thank God that He loved me enough to save me.