Featured The Inward True Jew

It is all grace, Brightframe.
We were saved by grace alone.
It was God's grace that gifted us faith.
That gracious gift is what justifies us.
Brightframe, faith is not something we conjure up or created. It is a gift from God, by which God accomplishes the good works that he ordained us to do. (Ephesians 2:10)

 

It is here to the believer in 1 Corinthians 12:9, ". . . To another faith by the same Spirit; . . ."

 

Very good. The Spirit of God, upon making you alive with Christ (Ephesians 2:4-5) gave you the gift of faith as well as other gifts according to His good will. There may be others with greater faith, but there is no believer who has no faith at all. If there was, then Hebrews 12:2 would be untrue.

*1 Corinthians 12:4-11*
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

*Hebrews 12:1-2*
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

Some summing up;

For the O.P., all Israel shall be saved is talking the grace in Salvation, to the remnant Jews and Gentiles.

"All Israel" is Spiritual Israel, all Elect Jews and Gentiles, to be saved.

Jesus is the Savior.

Jesus Christ is the Object of "faith".

Jesus Christ is the Object of every saved soul's "faith"; Adam's, Abraham's, and everyone else.

Everyone saved is Pardoned, by God, through the Work of Jesus Christ, through Whom we are also Justified and Made Righteous, in Him.

The Savior is the Object that God gives us the "faith", to connect to, in the New Birth's twin gifts, of Repentance and Faith.

The benefits of our Salvation are from Jesus the Savior, Who is the Object of the means of "faith" we are given.

It sounds like you want to see Jesus and His blood exalted as the Savior, for a statement or testimony from someone, to "look" like Salvation, is without works(?)

As in, "So faith in a causative sense doesnt Justify anyone, Christ does, faith merely makes it known to the Justified."

God Justifies the ungodly because He pardons their sins.

Jesus is the Savior.

Yes, "faith" is the means God uses and gives to us, "by which God accomplishes the good works that he ordained us to do".

Agree with AustinC, "very good".

That verse plainly teaches that "faith" is a gift, from The Holy Spirit.

"Faith" and "believing" are works.

The 1677/86 LBCF, above in black, calls them, "evangelical obedience".

Jesus called them, "work".

Did you know that?

Did you know there is a verse on it?

John 6:29; "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

 

True but to be a Jew you must first be circumcised (ritual or for real), be cleansed in a Mikva… pledge loyalty to Has-hem, YHWH, Adonai etc. You must also take a Hebrew name…preferably one that states Abraham as your parent… like David (Daved) Ben Abraham. If you then choose the messianic route then you acknowledge Jesus as the foretold Messiah (savior for the Jews…not Goyem (Gentiles) who are SOL.

 

The flesh, the blood line, means nothing. Recall Christ's words, You must be born anew?" No need to become a Jew, but instead we should be proclaiming how to become a child of God, a sibling of Christ. See Galatians 3:7

 

New thread:
Jesus called "believe", and, therefore, "faith"", a "work".

 

What you are promoting is a sly mixture of grace and works. You fail to acknowledge that Justification before God takes place for the elect of God prior to their faith in Christ. If you deny that, you deny Justification before God based solely on the Grace of God and Blood of Christ, for everyone He died for.

 

alan g

So are those for whom Christ died Justified before God, forgiven of all sins, on the sole basis of Christs atoning sacrifice, prior to their new birth and subsequent faith in Christ ? Yes or No please.

 

We have some Primitive Baptists on here. Hardshell, I believe they may be called.

I have talked to them about their doctrinal statements actually saying to not preach the Gospel(?)

Quotes on Primitive's, in orange, are from:
Recovering the Primitive Baptist doctrine of ‘Justification From Eternity’ in a non-particularistic framework – Mercy Upon All

There is more there, but it is all a "No", for my taste.

What we are looking at is Primitive Baptist teaching.

As if there is a question we should ask, like:

"Is preaching imperative for saving people
or is it rather the joyful revelation of something
which is already true about our existence?"

Their idea is, "The doctrine of justification from eternity suggests the latter."

And that's it. Just, "the joyful revelation of something
which is already true about our existence".

This is how they view The Gospel: "The gospel is not an obligation we are invited or urged to fulfill, a chance or an offer made to us, but an announcement and a promise (Barth).3" (Karl Barth, Deliverance to the Captives (Eugene: Wipf & Stock, 2010), p. 31.)

Both of these are problems:

1). "The gospel is not an obligation we are invited or urged to fulfill, a chance or an offer made to us",
because there is no "invitation" "we are invited or urged to fulfill",
and the Gospel is not "a chance" or 'an offer".

2). But, the Gospel is also not "an announcement and a promise".


That gets their philosophy into this area:

"Thus the efforts of the church are released to be a celebration of the gospel rather than a busy and desperate attempt at saving as many souls as possible before Christ returns."

As if, the Great Commission Commands, "a busy and desperate attempt at saving as many souls as possible before Christ returns."

Which they see, as: "a sly mixture of grace and works".

The Primitives want to say, "that justification is an immanent act of God and is thus not dependent on historical circumstances."

"Historical circumstances" such as Conviction of the sinner's sin through the Word and the law of God, Preaching of the Gospel, Regeneration of the New Birth, etc. Things like that.

You don't "fail to acknowledge that Justification before God takes place for the elect of God prior to their faith in Christ", from what I gather from you.

It is just that you don't go with, "Justification happens, to use a phrase from Karl Barth’s commentary to Romans, in the “eternal moment”, in which humanity is transferred from death to life.35 (Karl Barth, Epistle to the Romans (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1968), p. 404.)

I think I know what you believe about Faith being the Effect of Justification, AustinC, it's just not that it is from, an "eternal moment"(?)

The fear is for the alternative that they present as to what they think they are opposed to, for him to say, "you deny Justification before God based solely on the Grace of God and Blood of Christ, for everyone He died for", when you are accused to, "fail to acknowledge that Justification before God takes place for the elect of God prior to their faith in Christ", just because you don't believe Justification comes eternally before faith.

They think their opposition is, "Modern evangelicalism can to a large degree be said to subscribe to the idea that human beings are only justified before God in the moment they repent and exercise what is sometimes called ‘saving faith’.

"A well-known kliché is the one about ‘inviting Jesus into your heart’ or saying the sinners prayer.

"According to a study by LifeWay, a surprising majority of self-identifying American evangelicals believe that individuals must contribute to their own salvation by taking the first step in salvation.1 (See “Evangelicals’ Favorite Heresies Revisited by Researchers” in Christianity Today (September 28, 2016).

Thus, we are not, "Modern evangelicalism" and don't believe all these Arminian lies, to start with.

And, the Primitive's real opposition is Jesus Christ and His obligating His followers to Preach the Gospel.

So, maybe they are not His followers or called to Preach the Gospel, fulfill the Great Commission, etc. That is why they have had to split off from other Baptists who just may very well be so.

 

If you're out to smear the PBs then tell the whole story. It's GILLITE teaching as opposed to FULLERITE teaching. The article is rooted in the OLD PARTICULAR BAPTIST doctrine of Justification from eternity as taught by John Gill and other old Particular Baptists prior to the advent of Andrew Fuller, of which the Primitive Baptists still adhere to.

And if there's ever a truth that applies to Primitive Baptists they LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the preaching of the gospel.

 

@Alan Gross

It angers me that you stoop so low as to smear the Primitive Baptists from this article, which isn't even written by Primitive Baptists, and the quotes you underhandedly assign to PBs are not Primitive Baptist quotes but are rhetorical thoughts and questions presented by the non-PB author.

About mercyuponall.org – Mercy Upon All

 

Brightframe, have you heard the term "already, not yet"?
I do not deny that from God's view, our election, adoption, salvation, justification, sanctification, and glorification is before the foundation of the world. This is God's view.
In the timeline of human history, there are some still unsaved, who will be saved. Some unjustified, who will be justified. Some,like you and me, who are and will be being sanctified. Some, like you and me, who will one day be glorified. Already, not yet.
While we live this life, in a foreign land as God's ambassadors, we are living by faith, a faith that is living and working out our salvation. It's not humans conjuring up this faith. It is Jesus, authoring and finishing our faith so that we might do the good works He has ordained us to do.
There is no works on our part that God views as righteous. There is only God working his grace in our lives.

I am unsure what you are nitpicking here.

 

Am I smearing this website, too, by saying they have a wrong God cooked up?

"If God’s purpose is to save all sinners, then these things must be seen in this perspective. God’s love must be the rule for doing theology."

If it were the True God's purpose to save all sinners, they would be. Wrong God they got there.

God's Love is Bound by the Truth.

They have missed the Truth in the scriptures they're quoting.

Especially, the ones from bad versions.

And this the gospel you love?

"If we take the gospel to be good news about God’s infinite grace, everything else must be seen in this light."

Too many "ifs". Are they afraid to say they believe something?

So, Primitive Baptist means, "soteriological universalism"?

And you have set your mind to a religion to "deconstruct and reconstruct traditional concepts such as salvation, damnation, election, predestination, divine judgment and so on"?

Is that your brand of Primitive Baptist?

Sounds like a hardcore assignment. Who called you/ them to do that?

I'm just asking.

 

Alan, just what do you think you are attempting to do here?!? Are you implying that PB’s are false Christian’s and the interpretations of Fullerites are the correct exegesis of scripture? Well you have been very deliberate in your rock throwing accusations! Apparently you are spoiling for a fight rather than seeking to understand us. May I say that I’m very disappointed in your approach… it appears to be a blind side hit job!

 

Earth Wind and Fire, Brightfame52 hides behind the comment, "that looks like "works" to me", regarding any and every reference anyone makes to Salvation, so when he finally disclosed the following:

I see "Justification from Eternity". U?

So, the article I got up was called,

"Recovering the Primitive Baptist doctrine of ‘Justification From Eternity’ in a non-particularistic framework – Mercy Upon All".

Looks like they are talking about Primitive Baptists and recovering their doctrine of "Justification from Eternity", to me.

I called it, based on his rejections and accusations and the substance and intent of the article.

Are you and kyredneck not trying to recover "Justification from Eternity"?

Do either of you already hold to it?

I've asked both of you what you believe about things and must not have got what it is you stand for.

Are both of you opposites?

And both Primitive Baptists, or no?

I'm implying only this question:

Other than coming at the "Recovering the Primitive Baptist doctrine of ‘Justification From Eternity’ in a non-particularistic framework – Mercy Upon All"
and the website info, at: About mercyuponall.org – Mercy Upon All

You told me Fuller was anti-morganistic.

No, I don't side with that and possibly not with any flavor of Primitive Baptists, if they are Hardshell the way I know Hardshell.

They claim:

"The debate about the time of justification is far from just being a matter of speculation. It is relevant for practical theology, as it raises questions for mission and evangelism: Is preaching imperative for saving people or is it rather the joyful revelation of something which is already true about our existence?"

Article by Johannes Aakjær Steenbuch first published in the Journal of European Baptist Studies vol. 18, 2018 (IBTSC, Amsterdam), p. 31-44.

I hit on what I consider junk, in the article and the website.

My approach is concerning Brightfame52's condescensions and offhand rejections of Biblical expressions describing Salvation made by posters.

Then, there is this kyredneck and the troubling info unearthed from his referenced website.

I can do an open-eyed hit job once I know more.

Not really, I wasn't and am not into hit jobs, for no reason.

So, it's "the OLD PARTICULAR BAPTIST doctrine of Justification from eternity", but the article is about recovering it(?), by Primitive Baptists.

That's what the article is.

kyredneck,
So, does this mean you will no longer be angrily smearing Calvinists, in practically every post you make?

Wonder what exactly, "the gospel to be good news about God’s infinite grace" is?

"good news"?

"God’s infinite grace"?

Questions:

That would be quite the undertaking.

Who would possibly be influencing this project?

 

No, It looks like you never even read and thought about the content of the article. It looks like you are one deceitful shallow narrowminded bigoted intolerant individual that has no qualms about smearing your brothers and sisters in Christ in this temporal realm, the very same brothers and sisters in Christ that you're going to spend eternity in glory with, You thread-swamper, with your idiotic multi-colored copy and paste crap, you are one very SHALLOW individual.

 

austinc

And thats why its called the Gospel of God, it sets forth His View Rom 1:1

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

I disagree, though the elect of God may for a time experience spiritual alienation from God due to being dead in sin, and not yet regenerated and in unbelief, they need to be saved from that condition and will be, but they are never unjustified, since their sin and condemnation was imputed to Christ.

So again you fail to acknowledge that Christs death alone for the elect Justified them before God. Not only that His Death alone sanctified the elect as well Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

So are those for whom Christ died Justified before God, forgiven of all sins, on the sole basis of Christs atoning sacrifice, prior to their new birth and subsequent faith in Christ ? Yes or No please.

 

I'll take that as a 'no' and that you might need to read some more of RighteousTemperance's posts.

Get it.

Do you believe something Primitive Baptist, btw?

The article says Primitive Baptist in 3" tall letters on my monitor.

You are, or aren't, into Eternal Justification?

You're real mean, that's about all I know about you and that you especially hate Calvinism and Calvinists.