Featured Why Do Conditionalists Contradict Themselves and Pray to God for Salvation?

@Silverhair . You're going to have to work this out for yourself. The idea that the Holy Spirit is necessary in order for any of us to understand spiritual truth is not unique to Calvinism. G. Campbell Morgan had the same view. Wesley did too. A lot of old fundamentalist Baptists were also constantly warning about the dangers of not heeding the conviction of the Holy Spirit because He might leave. The idea being that without His drawing no chance of salvation was possible. I don't see any sense in going back and forth. We are all looking at the same set of scriptures.

 

The god of the conditionality can only make salvation available. He can not actually save anyone until they exercise a will in which the Bible says we do not have John 1:12-14

that should be scary to anyone

A is impotent to save is no God at all

 

Faith is knowledge that is received and accepted without sight. That is the reason God said faith as it relates to his salvation comes by hearing. We walk by faith, not by sight. If you do not have faith to believe what God has said through his prophets, then you are void of what it takes to receive his salvation, which is "Christ in you. the hope of glory.' (predestination).

I am fully aware that I was not elected by God until I believed his gospel and was immersed into the body of Christ by the Spirit, and in which I am safe because he, Jesus, was chosen before the foundation of the world and he has been through everything God's law demanded and my sin deserved in the way of punishment. His sacrifice was a one time sacrifice and I will never worry about being punished in him because I am accepted by God the Father in the beloved. Praise God.

God the Father through the apostle Paul said this about this wonderful truth;

Read this following and see that the church of Jesus Christ, Jew and gentile believer together in Christ, that is in his body, That he is forming in this age, is declared to be the wisdom of God. Included in this quote is a prayer of the apostle Paul for us, and if it is a prayer request of God for us, it must mean that the answer is not a sure thing.

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

The prayer:
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Just WOW! What a prayer that is still going up for us today.

 

Martin you have just shown that you do not trust the Holy Spirit. How can you when you deny what He has said?

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And we know that God love everyone enough to save them as He has told us so.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

But God set a condition for salvation FAITH in His son

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I do notice that you have equated faith with works but the Holy Spirit disagrees with you on that.

Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Well we already know the answer to that question. Romans 10:17

Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

According to your view He only loves some and condemns the rest but we know that is not true as the bible is the standard we should hold to not your Calvinistic philosophy.

 

Dave did you read post # 57. If you did where do you get the idea that I do not know what the Holy Spirit does. I pointed to John 16:8-9 did you miss that? Remember I am an old baptist, I trust what the bible says. That is way I have said more than once that God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion.
God owes no man forgiveness or eternal life, even if they freely repent and humbly submit to Him as Lord and Savior. Our faith does not put God in our debt. Our faith is the condition as God only saves those that believe. Calvinism has gotten it backward and has God save those that do not believe which is contra the bible. Dave see post # 64, my response to Martin. The bible is clear if you will just believe what it says.

 

As usual you trot out a load of texts which everyone, Calvinist, Arminian, Pelagian, Uncle Tom Cobley and all agree with, and pretend to your self that they are proof texts for something or other.
I've dealt with these so many times; I can't be bothered to do so again.

 

Martin if you agree with the scriptures that I posted then why do you call man's faith a work? The only way you could do that is to actually deny those texts or read them through your Calvinist philosophy which is to deny them.

You are in denial of the truth
Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Well we already know the answer to that question. Romans 10:17

Your refusal to deal with these texts is the normal response from Calvinist that have no honest biblical answer. This describes you Martin.

Cognitive Dissonance

Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong.

When they are presented with evidence that works against
that belief the new evidence cannot be accepted

It creates a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable,
called cognitive dissonance

And because it is so important to protect that core belief,
they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that
doesn’t fit in with that core belief.

 

Yes, I read it. My only concern is below. Quoting you:

You have an aversion to actually admitting that the Holy Spirit actually can act directly on the person hearing the gospel, changing them directly to enable them to have faith. You do not have that in the above list, which is a good list, except for that. Like I said, even non-Calvinists like G. Campbell Morgan said "All that you have learned concerning Christ, you know only by the teaching of the Spirit of God. No man can call Him Lord save by the Spirit; and no man can know Him save by the Spirit".

I do believe that faith is a condition for salvation but I think it's wrong to put it in a way that it appears that God simply has put out a new proposition for us to embrace and the rest is up to us. That does not accurately show how God saves. If we were not on a theology discussion board I don't think this need even come up. You hear the gospel, and you come to Christ and receive Him. Whether you are born again first, or enlightened, or convicted, and to what extent those terms are interchangeable, and whether the Spirit's work is resistible, or whether born again people who don't yet believe are walking around - none of that makes any practical difference. If you believe that you simply heard the gospel and embraced it - and your only reason is that that is the way it appeared to happen to you, then I have to problem with that at all. Just be careful where you go with that logic though because there is a real danger of self-righteousness or a feeling of bringing something of your own to this. But if that is not the case then I honestly don't know of any warning that anyone is given in scripture that they might be sinning just by saying they heard the gospel and came to Christ. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

 

I have said more than once that God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion. Dave did you not see the reference to conscience in that list? How do you think God impacts our conscience? Did you not understand the reference to John 16:8-9
Joh 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

What do you not understand about those words? How much clearer can I put it?

Your words "the Holy Spirit actually can act directly on the person hearing the gospel, changing them directly to enable them to have faith." would remove any free will from the person hearing the gospel. Under your view if the HS does not change the person then they can not believe. So it is not the man believing it is God forcing them to believe. And all those that the HS does not change are condemned to hell by God even though they really had no chance to believe.

I see nothing wrong with this quote but what you seem to have overlooked is that it is those that have the Spirit of God in them that this applies to and we know that only those that have trusted in Christ Jesus have the Spirit in them.

Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God has put out, as you call it, a proposition it is called the gospel
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
And God expects us to be able to respond the that message
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But as I said before God is reaching out to us by various means but it up to us to respond.
Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Although God has been reaching out to us and many will reject Him but as is obvious not all.

I really do not care if one calls themselves an Arminian, Calvinist, or something in between. If they do not trust what the bible clearly shows then they have a problem. Not with me but with God.

The bible tells us we can be convicted of our sins, that the gospel message is to be preached to all mankind, that we can hear the gospel message and believe, that God desires that all would come to Him in faith, that Christ Jesus died as a propitiation for all mankind, that God saves those that believe, that the risen Christ draws all men to Himself, that we are saved by grace and that grace is accessed through faith.

I agree, if we were not on a theology board we would not be discussing this, but we are on a theology board. Many millions have come to trust in Christ Jesus by hearing the gospel message or reading some bible text and understanding that their sin has condemned them and have cried out to God for that salvation.

 

I knew it and I'm glad you finally came out and said it instead of trying to obscure what you believe with "conscience" and a list of other things that come short of the Holy Spirit acting on a person. Without direct action of the Holy Spirit no one would come to Christ on their own. I respect your view on this but I reject your premise that this takes away a man's free will. The inability of a man to come to Christ is precisely because of his free will. That is the whole problem. If the Holy Spirit leaves any of us to our free wills we are lost. That is why the most sad and hopeless thing would be for the Holy Spirit to withdraw all gracious influence from a person. The great confessions take this into account when they talk about the Holy Spirit enabling one to have faith without violating a person's will. I would sit down with a Bible and the WCF and compare the scriptures with what the confessions say. You may not end up agreeing but I assure you they were not idiots and did put some thought into what they wrote.

 

Man's faith is not a work if it is the gift of God. If it is a requirement of God to a person without the Spirit then (a) it is a work because it is something required of one to do, and (b) no one will be saved, because the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.

Your persistence in offering arguments and texts that have already been answered many times is the normal response from Arminians and Pelagians that have no honest biblical answer. This describes you, Silverhair..

Cognitive Dissonance

Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong.

When they are presented with evidence that works against
that belief the new evidence cannot be accepted

It creates a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable,
called cognitive dissonance

And because it is so important to protect that core belief,
they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that
doesn’t fit in with that core belief.

 

You knew what? You will have to expand on that.
I know you will disagree but your idea that Holy Spirit has to enable belief is not biblical. How can a forced will be free? If the person cannot exercise their own belief, then the HS is not just enabling them to believe, but rather is ensuring they will believe. So logically if the HS does not "enable" a person to believe they cannot believe. So logically it is God that has condemned them arbitrarily.

You have made a number of logical leaps but have not provided the bases for those leaps?
"Without direct action of the Holy Spirit no one would come to Christ on their own."
"The inability of a man to come to Christ is precisely because of his free will."
"If the Holy Spirit leaves any of us to our free wills we are lost."
Man only has the Holy Spirit after he believes. And we know the HS convicts the world which under your view would mean that the whole world should be saved.

What would make you think I was trying to obscure something? My question is why do you discount the rest of that comment? God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion. You have focused on one thing, do you not thing God works through the rest of them or are they not good enough to bring someone to trust in the living God. Notice that it is our conscience that is influenced. The HS does not control it as you seem to think.

I know that you think the WCF is a great document but I do not. When you can make logical since of
I. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to passa) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,(b) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.(c)

Quite frankly those are straight up contradictions. If God of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass. You can not logically turn around and say ya but God didn't unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass in these cases.

I am not saying the whole document is illogical but when the foundation of your document is flawed you do have a problem.

 

I do find it strange that I provide scripture and all I get from the average Calvinist is philosophy and denial of scripture.

Martin big problem for you, faith is not the gift of God for salvation. So once again you show that you deny scripture, and you do not appear to feel any shame in doing so.
oh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Martin I really do expect better of you than your playing silly games with scripture. It is obvious that God has a higher view of mankind than you do. Your theology is a philosophical construct that is based on a faulty foundation.

The bible shows that man sins but it also shows that even those sinful men can trust in God for salvation.

 

I knew that you were deliberately leaving out the most important part of someone coming to Christ and that is the direct revealing of the truth and the enlightenment of the mind and the discovery that Christ and His way of salvation is desirable. I have never minimized those other things and it is not suitable for you to use that as a rebuttal to what I have just said. You left that out of the whole list of things because you don't believe it. Which is fine. But that's what I meant.

We've gone over this a million times. I get it that you don't accept my logical leaps. We'll just have to leave it there. It all comes down to our views of free will. I believe that if you are able to act as you are inclined to do then your will is free. Scripture clearly teaches our inclination is toward sin and evil. You can do what you want but you can't change your inclinations yourself. I know you don't accept that. But me going through it again is of no use.

These are difficulties arising from scripture that are indeed hard to resolve. Some people are willing to accept that this may happen as a human but some don't. I think if you don't you will have to come up with theologies that are out of balance - like an over emphasis on a morally neutral free will that is autonomous. (Our will is neither). But you will demand I explain it again. Let's just agree that we disagree.

Now, just to be clear. I think that you are probably closer to scripture than someone who is doesn't believe you should pray for salvation. And I don't think faith can be a work as long as faith is defined in a basic way of taking God at His word, or ceasing from self effort and trusting Christ or as a hand reaching out to Christ - even if you think you decided to do that on your own. And I don't think your opinion on things like the meaning of free vs autonomous will or whether you are conscious of the Holy Spirit working on your will has any bearing on your salvation. I just have exhausted all my explanations and have no more to say.

 

I do take exception to your accusation that I deliberately left something out. When I wrote that regarding our conscience it was with the understanding that it was the Holy Spirit that was working on our conscience do you not understand what John 16:8-9 means. Remember you are the one that said this is a theological discussion board so one would expect those on this board to understand the HS convicting via the conscience. If you did not understand that then you just misread the text. Sorry Dave you quite obviously do not know what I believe. But I will tell you so you have no doubt. THE BIBLE as it is written not as some man or group of men tell me how it is to be understood. There is avast difference between using commentaries to see other views but when those views contradict scripture it does not matter how revered the author is, they are wrong. You seem to place a number of authors on pedestals and it seems at times over the word of the bible. That is your choice but to me it is wrong.

I do believe that our sovereign God has given man a free will, that is not an autonomous free will, man can not save himself anymore than he can flap his arms and fly. But God will hold man responsible for the choices we make and the sins we commit so logically man has to have a real free will. The imagined free will that I see from the Calvinist side of theology is totally illogical and unbiblical but as you say we just have to agree to disagree on this.

You have said and I agree our inclination is toward sin and evil but although that is our inclination it does not preclude man from trusting the gospel message and humbling himself before God. If one says that is impossible then they are calling into question the sovereighty of God and scripture.

 

Well I find it strange that when I provide Scripture all I get from you is philosophy and denial.
When you post Scripture, I don't know what you want me to say about it, because I accept it all.

Now, as I wrote somewhere else, I am tied up with all sorts of things at present and have no time to do a long post. From next Sunday, things should get a little easier and I'll try and put something longer together.

 

You said you were an old Baptist. Here's what Charles Ryrie said in his book Basic Theology, which is what the Cedarville undergrads were using as a textbook. He is defining semi-Pelagianism.
"Semi-Pelagians teach that a man retains a measure of freedom by which he can cooperate with the grace of God. Man's
will thus has been weakened and his nature affected by the Fall, but he is not totally depraved. In regeneration man
chooses God who then adds His grace." (Page 220).
Is this not what you believe? If you are going to label others accept what theological term describes you. It makes things clearer. Now, regarding regeneration and faith he says this:
"In the Reformed statement of the ordo salutis, regeneration precedes faith, for, it is argued, a sinner must be given life in
order to believe. While this is admittedly stated only as a logical order, it is not wise to insist even on that; for it may well be
argued that if the sinner has the new life through regeneration, why does he need to believe? Of course, there can be no
chronological order, both regeneration and faith have to occur at the same moment. To be sure, faith is also part of the total
package of salvation which is the gift of God, yet faith is commanded in order to be saved. Both are true." (Page 326)
You see what he said in the last sentence? Both are true. Ryrie is an old Baptist and still well respected. Are you going to knock him for saying "both are true"? I guess he's just accepting a contradiction too. Everyone is except you. The fact is, you have done what you must do as a human trying to look into the mind of God. Accept what the scriptures teach or drift off into an incorrect theology that at least is easier for the human mind to grasp.

When I say there are "conditions" necessary for salvation, yet I don't mean "conditions" in the same way you do I am only going by what theologians say. Both Reformed and Baptist four pointers. Neither side seems to like that on this board but that's too bad.

 

Total depravity is Biblical. One thing total depravity is not, total inability. See Genesis 3:7, ". . . And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. . . ."

 

Faith as the gift comes after faith for salvation per 1 Corinthains 12:9.

 

If a man studied the scriptures of truth sixteen hours a day for fifty years, he would never find them saying that faith is "the" gift of God the Father. Ever! This is the context of Ephesians. Each member of the Godhead has different functions in the outworking of the salvation of souls. This can be seen all through the New Testament but I will give one example where it is so clear it would take someone who wants to deny this truth to disagree. nHere it is;

Ro 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

We can know in this context that God is the Father God because he has a Son. Only Fathers can have sons.

Ro 8:32 He (God the Father) that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

So it is the Father who delivered up his Son.

The Son in this context is Jesus Christ. The point is; if he already gave so much in his son, what would he possibly withhold from us?

Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

So, Both are equally God but functionally diverse. The Father delivered up the Son freely but it was the Son who died for us.

Earlier, he gave the function of the Holy Ghost, who himself is equally God. Look.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The Spirit is the quickener. He is the one who indwells the bodies of the believers and his presence in the body quickens it. He does not do the work of the Father and he does not make the sacrifice of the Son. We do know that our God is one God, but we have learned he is divisible in his person. It is God the Father who is the authority within the context of things on the earth. He gives the gift of the Spirit to those who trust in the sacrifice of Christ. He, God the Father, is the judge of the whole earth. He has told us who he justifies. It is the person who believes in Jesus as his substitute for the penalty of sin and who has tasted death and risen from the grave.

The gift of God is eternal life.
One of the gifts of the Spirit to his church, the body of Christ, is faith, but only to whom he chooses to give this gift to.

The record that we have today is the written "word of God." It is not the word of Jesus and it is not the word of the Spirit, it is the word of God the Father.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.