Featured Overfilling potholes

Based on what?

For example - Jesus knew the woman had the well had 5 ex husbands - unless he broke into the county records dept......

 

That is filling in a pothole. Scripture allows for one "dying" (a physical death) and two "deaths" (a physical death and a "second death" at Judgment).

The problem is these ideas that men come up with to make Scripture more palatable become barriers to understanding what Scripture actually says.

Jesus says man dies once (a physical death). Then there is a corporate "second death" for an entire group of people at Judgement.

Why, then, would we even consider the idea that Adam and Eve died spiritually?

It is because of traditions of filling in those potholes.

 

You are begging the question by attributing to me beliefs I never held or expressed (I suppose in order to avoid answering my question).

We shouldn't make up ideas and assign them to others. That is not dealing truthfully with one another.


Are you aware of any verse that indicates one was spiritually alive and then died spiritually?

Or if any verse that indicates spiritual life except in Christ?

 

Genesis only speaks of a physically dying (confirmed by Jesus' words that it is appointed to man once to die and then the Judgment....the "second death" being the Lake of Fire which is corporate to an entire people).

Man has made up a "Christian" myth of Adam, one that has no biblical basis. It is a uniquely Catholic doctrine maintained by those who hold a reformed Catholic faith.

That is why you cannot find any passages speaking of spiritually dying.

The closest you come is Adam's eye being opened to knowing good and evil as God knows good and evil.


What does the Bible (minus RCC doctrine) actually state happened?

Adam ate. He became like God in knowing good and evil. He would labor to eat. And he would return to dust (physical death).

We do not need myth because the potholes you see are because of tradition, not God's Word.

The asphalt patches have built up to form a mountain. And yes, you are correct that rejecting one unbiblical doctrine leads to issues with other unbiblical doctrines. The foundation is bad.

 

Yes, we disagree. I believe we have to treat Scripture with care and take it for what is said in the text (in "what is written") as best we can. I can't ignore that God pronounced Adam's impending death as "returning to dust", and I see this as a physical death (we literally return to te soil from which man was formed). And I cannot ignore that Jesus said man dies once.

That said, I am interested in and open to any passages that speak of men dying spiritually (men having spiritual life only to loose that life).

The nature of man being set on the things of the flesh is not a myth.

But the idea that Adam had spiritual life and the death caused by sin was spiritually death is Catholic myth passed down to us via those who sought to reform the RCC. It is a barrier to the biblical narrative as other doctrines are built up from it and it replaces Scripture.

People tend to look down on the 1st century church for not believing that the death we were redeemed from was a physical death. People reason that we, not they, are privileged to have centuries upon centuries of theology and study to lean upon.

BUT I would argue that they got to sit under Jesus' teaching. They learned from the Apostles. We have all of this theology and philosophy, but it is a barrier and not an advantage.

They believed Scripture meant what was said. It is "us" that dismisses "what is written" to find "what is taught".

 

I do not deny consequences from Adam's sin.

At the same time I cannot equate "knowing good and evil" to spiritually dying for a couple of reasons.

First, Scripture equates "knowing good and evil" to becoming "like God" (Genesis 3:22: Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil'. I do not believe God to be spiritually dead.

Second, God equated that death to returning to the dust (Genesis 3:19: For you are dust, and to dust you shall return.)

Third, Scripture says that it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment (Hebrews 9:27: And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment).

Fourth, Jesus said the "second death", being corporate, is at Judgment when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8: But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”).

Fifth, the idea that Adam died spiritually is foreign to the pre-Christian Hebrew religion.

Sixth, the First Century Church viewed this death as physical (granted this could have been shaped by their circumstances, BUT these are people who heard Jesus and the Apostles teach).

Seventh, there are no passages in the text of Scripture that would indicate Adam was spiritually alive and then died spiritually.

Eighth, Scripture links spiritual life uniquely with Jesus.

Ninth, while perhaps subjective on my part I believe Scripture does not offer the possibility of dying spiritually but instead presents spiritual life as less temporary as you are allowing.

Your turn.

Do you know of any passages (what is written) that says Adam died a death other than a physical death?

 

Not at all. That is an entirely different topic

I never argued that "of the flesh" is not "of the spirit".

I argued that it is appointed to man once to die and then the Judgment, with the casting of the wicked into the lake of fire being the "second death".

And I have argued that Adam, and man in general, did not spiritually die. We were born flesh, not spirit.

You offer passages saying we were dead in our sins (and I agree). But do you know of ANY passages saying one was spiritually alive and then died spiritually?

 

Interesting. I have never heard the interpretation you offer for that verse. Most view it as a knowledge of one's spiritual deadness (the Law as a "schoolmaster").

But I disagree with your interpretation. I believe that we are born flesh, "of Adam", and spiritually dead. While not a Calvinist I do believe total depravity.

So you believe Paul was born spiritually alive and then died spiritually when he became aware of the Law, and later was later made spiritually alive in Christ?

Is there, in your opinion, an average age when we spiritually die and need Jesus?

 

But Adam (and Eve) were NOT born