Overfilling potholes

[MrW]

Often when studying scripture, we must "fill in the blank." Something is said where we must supply the scope of the statement. Our interpretive translation fills in potholes produced by ambiguity. For example, Jesus knows all. Is the intended scope, Jesus knows everything imaginable, or just Jesus know all of the things in view based on context?

When we expand the scope of the text, like overfilling potholes in a street, we create just another road hazard.

When we see "the things" of the Spirit, do we say all the things of the spirit, or "at least some of the things of the spirit?"

When we see "no one seeks after God," do we say no one "ever" seeks after God, or no one always seeks after God?"

When we see "do not allow the women to speak in church," do we say do not allow any women to ever speak in church, or do not allow disruptive women to speak in church?

The key to not overfilling the potholes is to ask, what is the minimum God is saying.

The Lord Jesus did not know everything during His incarnation as a man. His knowledge was veiled.

 

[Salty]

The Lord Jesus did not know everything during His incarnation as a man. His knowledge was veiled.

Based on what?

For example - Jesus knew the woman had the well had 5 ex husbands - unless he broke into the county records dept......

 

[Van]

The key to filling potholes is let God fill the potholes and YOU put down the shovel... Brother Glen

LOL, as if your out of context overfill was ordained by God. Have you no clue?

1) The text contains ambiguity.

2) Interpreters fill in the possible meaning.

3) False Teachers claim God filled in the out of context possible meaning.

 

[Van]

The Lord Jesus did not know everything during His incarnation as a man. His knowledge was veiled.

Yes, Jesus did not know "all things (imaginable)" as He did not know the time of His return, but scripture says Jesus knows "all things" (John 21:17) so the contextual scope is "you know all things about those you interact with" such as the women with 5 husbands. Contextually, in John 21 Jesus knows all things about Peter and the others present.

 

[Van]

Genesis 2:17 (NKJV)
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

This verse presents a huge pothole. Adam did not physically die on the 24 hour day he ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

To escape this difficulty, several interpretations have been offered:

1) Adam died spiritually, being separated from God on the 24 hour day that he ate the forbidden fruit. The problem with this "fix" is Genesis 3:19 which imposes the future penalty of physical death.

2) God relented and chose not to impose physical death on the 24 hour day Adam ate the fruit. The problem with this "fix" is when God says "if you do this, I will do that" He only relents when God specifies a conditional, i.e "but if you do this other thing, I will relent.

3) God imposed a specific future event, the penalty of death by imposing mortality. So dying due to mortality, you will die and become dust. I like this one. Thus on the 24 hour day Adam sinned, Adam now being unholy was separated spiritually from our Holy God, and also on the 24 hour day Adam sinned, Adam became mortal so that dying he would die.

 

[JonC]

But Adam and Eve did die a death on that day.

That is filling in a pothole. Scripture allows for one "dying" (a physical death) and two "deaths" (a physical death and a "second death" at Judgment).

The problem is these ideas that men come up with to make Scripture more palatable become barriers to understanding what Scripture actually says.

Jesus says man dies once (a physical death). Then there is a corporate "second death" for an entire group of people at Judgement.

Why, then, would we even consider the idea that Adam and Eve died spiritually?

It is because of traditions of filling in those potholes.

 

[JonC]

I guess that is the reason you don't believe in Total Depravity but Total Inability... In Total Depravity... God is Sovereign and man is not... In Total Inability... It is man who is Sovereign and God who is not... Show me one scripture where man helped God create the Universe... Man was the last thing God created but he still taking credit for the new creation, robbing God of his glory... Brother Glen

You are begging the question by attributing to me beliefs I never held or expressed (I suppose in order to avoid answering my question).

We shouldn't make up ideas and assign them to others. That is not dealing truthfully with one another.


Are you aware of any verse that indicates one was spiritually alive and then died spiritually?

Or if any verse that indicates spiritual life except in Christ?

 

[Van]

Why would we think Adam and Eve were not dead in their sins, that their sin did not create a separation between them and God.

How are people "made alive" together with Christ, while being physically alive? Isaiah 59:2

Eph 2:1
And you were dead in your offenses and sins,

Eph 2:5
even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Col 2:13
And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings,

Bottom line, any unforgiven sin causes spiritual separation from God, and this separation is called being spiritually dead in sin. All the people said to be dead were physically alive, thus the concept of being "in Adam" spiritually or being in Christ spiritually and being spiritually dead in Adam and being spiritually alive in Christ seems sound.

Since all of Adam's descendants were "made sinners" (Romans 5:19) conceived in iniquity, everyone starts out spiritually dead in Adam and not spiritually alive in Christ. As the coroner might say we are DOA, dead on arrival.

 

[Van]

Total Spiritual Inability is an example of an overfilled pothole. Limited spiritual ability, able to understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, but not spiritual solid food (meat) is the biblical doctrine of spiritual ability while dead in sins.

Soil #1, of Matthew 13, suffered from total spiritual inability, not due to the Fall, but due to the practice of sin. Soils #2, 3 and 4 of Matthew 13 suffered from Limited Spiritual Ability yet were able to understand and accept to varying degrees, the gospel of Christ.

 

[37818]

Why, then, would we even consider the idea that Adam and Eve died spiritually?

For no other reason than the death was no the physical death. And the lack of a Biblical lable to be used to discribe what to call that preceived death spoken of in Genesis 2:17 and being denied in Genesis 3:4.

 

[JonC]

For no other reason than the death was no the physical death. And the lack of a Biblical lable to be used to discribe what to call that preceived death sokeb of in Genesis 2:17 and being denied in Genesis 3:4.

Genesis only speaks of a physically dying (confirmed by Jesus' words that it is appointed to man once to die and then the Judgment....the "second death" being the Lake of Fire which is corporate to an entire people).

Man has made up a "Christian" myth of Adam, one that has no biblical basis. It is a uniquely Catholic doctrine maintained by those who hold a reformed Catholic faith.

That is why you cannot find any passages speaking of spiritually dying.

The closest you come is Adam's eye being opened to knowing good and evil as God knows good and evil.


What does the Bible (minus RCC doctrine) actually state happened?

Adam ate. He became like God in knowing good and evil. He would labor to eat. And he would return to dust (physical death).

We do not need myth because the potholes you see are because of tradition, not God's Word.

The asphalt patches have built up to form a mountain. And yes, you are correct that rejecting one unbiblical doctrine leads to issues with other unbiblical doctrines. The foundation is bad.

 

[37818]

Genesis only speaks of a physically dying . . . .

We disagree.

to discribe what to call that preceived death spoken of in Genesis 2:17 and being denied in Genesis 3:4.

Is the sinful nature of fallen human race a myth?

 

[JonC]

We disagree.


Is the sinful nature of fallen human race a myth?

Yes, we disagree. I believe we have to treat Scripture with care and take it for what is said in the text (in "what is written") as best we can. I can't ignore that God pronounced Adam's impending death as "returning to dust", and I see this as a physical death (we literally return to te soil from which man was formed). And I cannot ignore that Jesus said man dies once.

That said, I am interested in and open to any passages that speak of men dying spiritually (men having spiritual life only to loose that life).

The nature of man being set on the things of the flesh is not a myth.

But the idea that Adam had spiritual life and the death caused by sin was spiritually death is Catholic myth passed down to us via those who sought to reform the RCC. It is a barrier to the biblical narrative as other doctrines are built up from it and it replaces Scripture.

People tend to look down on the 1st century church for not believing that the death we were redeemed from was a physical death. People reason that we, not they, are privileged to have centuries upon centuries of theology and study to lean upon.

BUT I would argue that they got to sit under Jesus' teaching. They learned from the Apostles. We have all of this theology and philosophy, but it is a barrier and not an advantage.

They believed Scripture meant what was said. It is "us" that dismisses "what is written" to find "what is taught".

 

[37818]

I can't ignore that God pronounced Adam's impending death as "returning to dust", . . .

You wrongly seen to deny the death resulting from the eating the fruit of knowledgevof good and evil with other consequences of death God gave on its account.

 

[JonC]

You wrongly seen to deny the death resulting from the eating the fruit of knowledgevof good and evil with other consequences of death God gave on its account.

I do not deny consequences from Adam's sin.

At the same time I cannot equate "knowing good and evil" to spiritually dying for a couple of reasons.

First, Scripture equates "knowing good and evil" to becoming "like God" (Genesis 3:22: Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil'. I do not believe God to be spiritually dead.

Second, God equated that death to returning to the dust (Genesis 3:19: For you are dust, and to dust you shall return.)

Third, Scripture says that it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment (Hebrews 9:27: And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment).

Fourth, Jesus said the "second death", being corporate, is at Judgment when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8: But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”).

Fifth, the idea that Adam died spiritually is foreign to the pre-Christian Hebrew religion.

Sixth, the First Century Church viewed this death as physical (granted this could have been shaped by their circumstances, BUT these are people who heard Jesus and the Apostles teach).

Seventh, there are no passages in the text of Scripture that would indicate Adam was spiritually alive and then died spiritually.

Eighth, Scripture links spiritual life uniquely with Jesus.

Ninth, while perhaps subjective on my part I believe Scripture does not offer the possibility of dying spiritually but instead presents spiritual life as less temporary as you are allowing.

Your turn.

Do you know of any passages (what is written) that says Adam died a death other than a physical death?

 

[KenH]

That said, I am interested in and open to any passages that speak of men dying spiritually (men having spiritual life only to loose that life).

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ.

Are you saying that the Scriptures are wrong to refer to God's elect as spiritually dead before God regenerates them?

Your posts can be rather hard to decipher. You seem to be a theological unicorn(meaning one of a kind).

 

[JonC]

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ.

Are you saying that the Scriptures are wrong to refer to God's elect as spiritually dead before God regenerates them?

Your posts can be rather hard to decipher. You seem to be a theological unicorn(meaning one of a kind).

Not at all. That is an entirely different topic

I never argued that "of the flesh" is not "of the spirit".

I argued that it is appointed to man once to die and then the Judgment, with the casting of the wicked into the lake of fire being the "second death".

And I have argued that Adam, and man in general, did not spiritually die. We were born flesh, not spirit.

You offer passages saying we were dead in our sins (and I agree). But do you know of ANY passages saying one was spiritually alive and then died spiritually?

 

[KenH]

But do you know of ANY passages saying one was spiritually alive and then died spiritually?

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

(emphasis mine)

I don't think you can make the case that Paul is referring to physical death in that verse.

 

[JonC]

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

I don't think you can make the case that Paul is referring to physical death in that verse.

Interesting. I have never heard the interpretation you offer for that verse. Most view it as a knowledge of one's spiritual deadness (the Law as a "schoolmaster").

But I disagree with your interpretation. I believe that we are born flesh, "of Adam", and spiritually dead. While not a Calvinist I do believe total depravity.

So you believe Paul was born spiritually alive and then died spiritually when he became aware of the Law, and later was later made spiritually alive in Christ?

Is there, in your opinion, an average age when we spiritually die and need Jesus?

 

[Salty]

. We were born flesh, not spirit.

But Adam (and Eve) were NOT born