Overfilling potholes

[JonC]

@KenH

You are arguing an "age of accountability'. You seem to interpret Paul as saying we are born spiritually alive and remain so until we become aware of the Law which reveals our sin.

Romans 7:7–11 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

What do you do with Romans 2:12?

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

 

[JonC]

But Adam (and Eve) were NOT born

Born flesh was my word. Scripture describes Adam as being made a living soul.

My point is that the idea Adam's nature changed is not in the Bible. His eyes were opened to know good and evil like God. Through his sin death entered the world and Adam would die, becoming dust.

We rely far too much on Catholic doctrine and tradition in our theology. What we needed was a return to Scripture, not a reform of RCC doctrine.

 

[Salty]

We rely far too much on Catholic doctrine and tradition in our theology. What we needed was a return to Scripture, not a reform of RCC doctrine.

I do not consider Catholic doctrine.
Now on the other hand there are things that RC and Baptists do agree!

So - Was Adam created without sin?
Was he created with a sin nature

 

[JonC]

I do not consider Catholic doctrine.
Now on the other hand there are things that RC and Baptists do agree!

So - Was Adam created without sin?
Was he created with a sin nature

We do not consider Catholic doctrine. That isn't what I mean. What I am saying is RCC doctrine has made it into our churches via the efforts of the Reformers. Reformed doctrine is very Catholic, and their influences are present in our churches.

Yes, Adam was created without having sinned. He was tempted by the desires of the flesh (the fruit was pleasing to the eye, would bring knowledge, would make them like God, and....of course...would silence his nagging wife ). We sin in the same way...perhaps without the nagging wife.

 

[KenH]

Interesting. I have never heard the interpretation you offer for that verse.

I was not offering an interpretation, but showing you a verse that mentions being alive and then dying.

Most view it as a knowledge of one's spiritual deadness (the Law as a "schoolmaster").

But I disagree with your interpretation. I believe that we are born flesh, "of Adam", and spiritually dead. While not a Calvinist I do believe total depravity.

So you believe Paul was born spiritually alive and then died spiritually when he became aware of the Law, and later was later made spiritually alive in Christ?

Is there, in your opinion, an average age when we spiritually die and need Jesus?

"When the commandment came, (saith he,) sin revived, and I died. What doth he mean? When the commandment came! Why the commandment was in the world ages before Paul was born. He could not mean, therefore, that he had never heard the commandment before! But the sense is, that the law was never brought home to his conscience by the powerful hand of God the Holy Ghost until his memorable conversion. Then the Lord, for the first time, opened his eyes to the right apprehension of the law, and to the right knowledge of himself, as a sinner before God: and the consequence was, that all those high towering thoughts which he had conceived of his own goodness, fell to the ground, and he himself fell with them a self-condemned sinner before God. Reader! what know you personally of these things? Hath the same Lord which taught Paul, taught you? Hath God the Holy Ghost brought you acquainted with the anatomy of your own heart, and dissected to your view all its foldings? Hath the Lord laid open the workings of it, and made you out of love with it, as he did Paul? If so, you will find cause to bless the Lord for such a portrait as he hath caused the Apostle here to draw of himself; in which every man, taught by the same Almighty Master, and brought up in the same school, may discover his own features. For, (as the wise man saith,) as in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man, Proverbs 27:19."

- excerpt from Robert Hawker's Poor Man's Commentary on Romans 7:7-13

 

[KenH]

You are arguing an "age of accountability'.

Nope. That is what I was taught in the Church of Christ. I left that behind 24 years ago.

You have apparently misunderstood me. I am sorry I was not more clear.

 

[JonC]

I was not offering an interpretation, but showing you a verse that mentions being alive and then dying.



"When the commandment came, (saith he,) sin revived, and I died. What doth he mean? When the commandment came! Why the commandment was in the world ages before Paul was born. He could not mean, therefore, that he had never heard the commandment before! But the sense is, that the law was never brought home to his conscience by the powerful hand of God the Holy Ghost until his memorable conversion. Then the Lord, for the first time, opened his eyes to the right apprehension of the law, and to the right knowledge of himself, as a sinner before God: and the consequence was, that all those high towering thoughts which he had conceived of his own goodness, fell to the ground, and he himself fell with them a self-condemned sinner before God. Reader! what know you personally of these things? Hath the same Lord which taught Paul, taught you? Hath God the Holy Ghost brought you acquainted with the anatomy of your own heart, and dissected to your view all its foldings? Hath the Lord laid open the workings of it, and made you out of love with it, as he did Paul? If so, you will find cause to bless the Lord for such a portrait as he hath caused the Apostle here to draw of himself; in which every man, taught by the same Almighty Master, and brought up in the same school, may discover his own features. For, (as the wise man saith,) as in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man, Proverbs 27:19."

- excerpt from Robert Hawker's Poor Man's Commentary on Romans 7:7-13

I agree with Hawker.

The Law acquainted Paul with his own heart. Paul was speaking of God bringing him to apprehension of the law, and to the right knowledge of himself, as a sinner before God. This was not Paul spiritually dying but instead Paul realizing that he was spiritually dead.

I think we both know the idea that Adam died spiritually is foreign to the Bible (actually, it contradicts what is stated in God's Word about being alive spiritually).

 

[JonC]

Nope. That is what I was taught in the Church of Christ. I left that behind 24 years ago.

You have apparently misunderstood me. I am sorry I was not more clear.

Perhaps I have. I like (and agree with) your Hawker's quite. Paul was using "death" in the sense "that the law was never brought home to his conscience by the powerful hand of God the Holy Ghost until his memorable conversion. Then the Lord, for the first time, opened his eyes to the right apprehension of the law, and to the right knowledge of himself, as a sinner before God: and the consequence was, that all those high towering thoughts which he had conceived of his own goodness, fell to the ground, and he himself fell with them a self-condemned sinner before God."

Paul realized he was dead (spiritually speaking).

 

[KenH]

I think we both know the idea that Adam died spiritually is foreign to the Bible

Yes, that is what the Bible teaches.

Psalm 51:5-7 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
And in sin did my mother conceive me.
Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts:
And in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean:
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

"He here goes back to the source of all sin, in original depravity! What hyssop shall purge this away, what washing of water will make this clean? Oh! how blessed is it do behold Christ, whose blood alone cleanseth from all sin. 1 John 1:7."

- Robert Hawker's Poor Man's Commentary on Psalm 51:5-7

Psalm 58:3-5 The wicked are estranged from the womb:
They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Their poison is like the poison of a serpent:
They are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers,
Charming never so wisely.

"Here are several very striking similitudes made use of, by way of setting forth the awful depravity of the human heart: the perversity even from the womb; the poison of the serpent which is deadly, and the incurableness of it by any human means, under the figure of a deaf adder. The music of the gospel is lost on such characters. No charms in grace to them; no beauty in Jesus!"

- Robert Hawker's Poor Man's Commentary on Psalm 58:3-5

 

[JonC]

Yes, that is what the Bible teaches.

Psalm 51:5-7 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
And in sin did my mother conceive me.
Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts:
And in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean:
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

"He here goes back to the source of all sin, in original depravity! What hyssop shall purge this away, what washing of water will make this clean? Oh! how blessed is it do behold Christ, whose blood alone cleanseth from all sin. 1 John 1:7."

- Robert Hawker's Poor Man's Commentary on Psalm 51:5-7

Psalm 58:3-5 The wicked are estranged from the womb:
They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Their poison is like the poison of a serpent:
They are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers,
Charming never so wisely.

"Here are several very striking similitudes made use of, by way of setting forth the awful depravity of the human heart: the perversity even from the womb; the poison of the serpent which is deadly, and the incurableness of it by any human means, under the figure of a deaf adder. The music of the gospel is lost on such characters. No charms in grace to them; no beauty in Jesus!"

- Robert Hawker's Poor Man's Commentary on Psalm 58:3-5

You are changing the argument. I am not denying that we are born sinners by nature.

I am saying that the idea Adam died spiritually is unbiblical.

I think that's why people here keep spinning my argument into something I never claimed - they know the idea of dying spiritually is unbiblical but it is a tradition other doctrines are built, so they shift the argument.

You did it here by posting as if I reject we are born "spiritually dead" and @tyndale1946 did it when he claimed I rejected total depravity and divine sovereignty.

So to clarify for you and Brother Tyndale -

I believe in total depravity.
I believe we are born flesh, not spirit.
I believe we were not born with "spiritually life"

That which is born flesh is flesh, that which is born flesh f the Spirit is spirit.

 

[KenH]

You are changing the argument. I am not denying that we are born sinners by nature.

I am saying that the idea Adam died spiritually is unbiblical.

I think that's why people here keep spinning my argument into something I never claimed - they know the idea of dying spiritually is unbiblical but it is a tradition other doctrines are built, so they shift the argument.

You did it here by posting as if I reject we are born "spiritually dead" and @tyndale1946 did it when he claimed I rejected total depravity and divine sovereignty.

So to clarify for you and Brother Tyndale -

I believe in total depravity.
I believe we are born flesh, not spirit.
I believe we were not born with "spiritually life"

That which is born flesh is flesh, that which is born flesh f the Spirit is spirit.

I do not understand your argument at all. Maybe you could write a paragraphs long explanation of your viewpoint as I do not understand why you say that humans are born spiritually dead if Adam, their representative, did not die spiritually when he ate the forbidden fruit.

Furthermore, you should stop claiming that "they know the idea of dying spiritually is unbiblical", when I "know" no such thing and will defend against you and anyone else who falsely claims that Adam did not die spiritually when he ate the forbidden fruit.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

How about this:
Eating in a church building!

Are these verses telling us NOT to eat in the church building
or does it mean that the Lords Supper should not be a large buffet.

(Granted - it is very impolite to eat while the pastor is preaching- but i have
no problem with a good fellowship dinner)

And yes - there are chruches who prohibit any eating in the church building.

No eating in the church building. But you can have a gymnasium and an attached "fellowship hall" complete with kitchen!

 

[37818]

I do not deny consequences from Adam's sin.

I know. At issue is that day of Adam's sin was a death often labeled as "spiritual" death.

 

[Salty]

No eating in the church building.

Why Not?
Does Scripture prohibit it?

But you can have a gymnasium and an attached "fellowship hall" complete with kitchen!

What is the difference
and what if the church does not have a "fellowship hall"
I did attend one church - that if we had a fellowship dinner it was in the church auditorium. Does that mean we were sinning?

 

[AustinC]

You are changing the argument. I am not denying that we are born sinners by nature.

I am saying that the idea Adam died spiritually is unbiblical.

When we look at Adam and Eve, we see their spiritual death at the moment of sinning and eating. They disobeyed God and they hid from God. That hiding is an example of what Paul says when he states in Ephesians 2:1 that "we were dead in our trespasses and sins." That is exactly where Adam and Eve were at, after the fall. However, you immediately see the..."But God" in reaching out to Adam and Eve, calling them, choosing to graciously cloth them, and give them the promise of a Redeemer.
Adam and Eve are the first ones to receive the gracious work of God in saving them by quickening their dead spirits and giving them the gift of faith.

Dead has to mean "dead" in some way, shape, or form. Since our bodies keep functioning, yet Paul tells us we were dead, what death is he then referring to, since it cannot be physical death?

 

[JonC]

I do not understand your argument at all. Maybe you could write a paragraphs long explanation of your viewpoint as I do not understand why you say that humans are born spiritually dead if Adam, their representative, did not die spiritually when he ate the forbidden fruit.

Furthermore, you should stop claiming that "they know the idea of dying spiritually is unbiblical", when I "know" no such thing and will defend against you and anyone else who falsely claims that Adam did not die spiritually when he ate the forbidden fruit.

Sure, I can explain. The Bible does not offer the possibility of dying spiritually, therefore the idea that a man died spiritually is unbiblical.

Adam was made a living soul. Adam was flesh. We are born a living soul and flesh. Christ was made a "Life giving Spirit". We must be reborn spiritually in the image of Christ.

 

[JonC]

When we look at Adam and Eve, we see their spiritual death at the moment of sinning and eating. They disobeyed God and they hid from God. That hiding is an example of what Paul says when he states in Ephesians 2:1 that "we were dead in our trespasses and sins." That is exactly where Adam and Eve were at, after the fall. However, you immediately see the..."But God" in reaching out to Adam and Eve, calling them, choosing to graciously cloth them, and give them the promise of a Redeemer.
Adam and Eve are the first ones to receive the gracious work of God in saving them by quickening their dead spirits and giving them the gift of faith.

Dead has to mean "dead" in some way, shape, or form. Since our bodies keep functioning, yet Paul tells us we were dead, what death is he then referring to, since it cannot be physical death?

Dead means dead in some way, shape or form - I agree.

I suggest that "dead" in that context means "spiritually dead".

A good example of this is when Jesus says "let the dead burry their dead". The idea is to let the spiritually dead bury their physically dead (while the spiritually alive...the Disciple...gets on with following Christ).

 

[JonC]

I know. At issue is that day of Adam's sin was a death often labeled as "spiritual" death.

I don't see how that is an issue. The passage in English does not say Adam will die on that day. More importantly, the verse in Hebrew is far from saying Adam will die on that day.

I don't see how you determine Adam died spiritually given what the Bible says it is to be alive spiritually.

Also, death is described by God when actually giving Adam the consequences of his sin as returning to dust. How is this not physical?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Why Not?
Does Scripture prohibit it?



What is the difference
and what if the church does not have a "fellowship hall"
I did attend one church - that if we had a fellowship dinner it was in the church auditorium. Does that mean we were sinning?

Oh, that post was just channeling "expert in the law" rule making for the masses. In other words, don't do it that way.

One would do much better to heed the Master's words to "quit judging by mere appearance and make a right judgment." Anything that stifles the work of the Holy Spirit is serious sin indeed.

 

[KenH]

Sure, I can explain. The Bible does not offer the possibility of dying spiritually, therefore the idea that a man died spiritually is unbiblical.

I suggest that "dead" in that context means "spiritually dead".

A good example of this is when Jesus says "let the dead burry their dead". The idea is to let the spiritually dead bury their physically dead (while the spiritually alive...the Disciple...gets on with following Christ).

Are you saying that Adam and Eve were created spiritually dead????