Overfilling potholes

[Van]

A day is as a thousand years with the LORD. Adam died at 932.

I take this as rejecting Revelations 13:8 and 17:8 say some names were not written since the founding of humanity. Or perhaps Jesus did indeed die about 2000 years ago and thus was not yet slain from the founding of humanity until about 2000 years ago.

Pointless to spend time debating the obvious.

 

[Van]

The idea 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals through faith in the truth is obvious to all except deniers.
There is no ambiguity or pothole to fill.

However, when we see "all things" in the text, we should see a pothole needing filling and not overfilling.

Bible study 101

 

[AustinC]

I take this as rejecting Revelations 13:8 and 17:8 say some names were not written since the founding of humanity. Or perhaps Jesus did indeed die about 2000 years ago and thus was not yet slain from the founding of humanity until about 2000 years ago.

Pointless to spend time debating the obvious.

*Revelation 13:7-8*
Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Note that the people who were not written in the book of life are those who were not marked by God.

*Revelation 17:5-8*
And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly. But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Again, we see that those who have not been marked by God (were never written in the book of life) are the ones who are deluded by the great whore, Babylon.

The names of everyone who has the mark of God were written before the foundation of the world. God's election, choice, and predestination have been sure since before the foundation of the world.

 

[Van]

*Revelation 13:7-8*
Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Note that the people who were not written in the book of life are those who were not marked by God.

*Revelation 17:5-8*
And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly. But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Again, we see that those who have not been marked by God (were never written in the book of life) are the ones who are deluded by the great whore, Babylon.

The names of everyone who has the mark of God were written before the foundation of the world. God's election, choice, and predestination have been sure since before the foundation of the world.

LOL, note that Revelation 13:8, is provided by this poster as an obvious mistranslation. The text reads "since" the foundation of the world, translating "apo." The demonic effort to rewrite the text according to man-made doctrine is the stock and trade of false teachers. In the above translations, at least the phrase describes when the correct action (non-action) took place. Those going into the Lake of Fire never had their names written in the Lamb's book of life.

BTW, Revelations 17:8 provides the contextual key to appending the phrase "from the foundation of the world" as both describe the same "non-action." as having occurred from or since and not before the foundation of the world.

 

[AustinC]

LOL, note that Revelation 13:8, is provided by this poster as an obvious mistranslation. The text reads "since" the foundation of the world, translating "apo." The demonic effort to rewrite the text according to man-made doctrine is the stock and trade of false teachers. In the above translations, at least the phrase describes when the correct action (non-action) took place. Those going into the Lake of Fire never had their names written in the Lamb's book of life.

BTW, Revelations 17:8 provides the contextual key to appending the phrase "from the foundation of the world" as both describe the same "non-action." as having occurred from or since and not before the foundation of the world.

LOL, Van, you are not a Greek scholar. You are a very poor amateur.
I quote from the ESV, which is a very good translation.
Second, both references you made are, in fact, dealing with those who are not in the book precisely because they are marked by Satan, not by God. Van, I am presently in a great personal study of Revelation so this is fresh, at the forefront, material for me. In Revelation 7 we see that every believer (144,000 is a symbolic number for the entire Church) is marked by God and sealed unto eternity. From that point on in the letter we are always protected. It is those, not marked by God, but instead, marked by Satan, that are the people who are not written in the Book of Life. The elect are secure from before the foundation of the world. This fact is found all over the Bible.

So, you are clearly and desperately looking for a loophole to somehow maintain your horribly flawed theology, which everyone at the BB knows as...Vanology.

I provided the context around both your prooftexts. You are demonstrably wrong.

 

[Van]

LOL, Van, you are not a Greek scholar. You are a very poor amateur.
I quote from the ESV, which is a very good translation.

Yet another attack on my qualification, ignoring the fact the ESV mistranslated Revelation 13:8 because it copied the RSV and not the NRSV. This is really basic stuff.

And note the fictional rabbit hole of those "marked by Satan?" Obfuscation on display.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another attack on my qualification, ignoring the fact the ESV mistranslated Revelation 13:8 because it copied the RSV and not the NRSV. This is really basic stuff.

And note the fictional rabbit hole of those "marked by Satan?" Obfuscation on display.

Van, you have dug your own pothole where there was no pothole, and then you have tried to fill in that pothole with your own, horrible, theology, which the entire board calls...Vanology.
At some point, you need to look inward.

 

[JonC]

Scripture uses a double (everywhere else Scripture does this we interpret it as an emphatic). If we interpret the passage as we do throughout the Bible then the verse is saying that on the day Adam eats of the fruit death would be a certainty. An alternate interpretation is that death would begin (dying you shall die), but I think this a forced interpretation.

In the KJV the verse also does not indicate that death would occur on that day (Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.)

Why do you change the verse to read "you shall die on that day"?

This is how the warning manifested itself when Adam sinned (per God):

Genesis 3:17–19 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;

Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

It does not say it in the way you think it should. They did die a type of death on that day. The Serpent murdered them by lying to Eve ". . . Ye shall not surely die: . . ."

????

You keep altering Scripture to fit your tradition here.

God told Adam that on the day he ate of the fruit he would surely die.

God did NOT tell Adam that he would die on that day.

More to the point (if the problem is the English translation) is the fact that the Hebrew from which that verse is translated does not identify a day that Adam will die.

You keep highlighting "on that day" (which should be "in that day"). But nobody is arguing that death became a certainty (or sure) on the day he ate.

Try reading the verse without changing the words around. I think that would help you understand what I am saying insofar as the English goes. Then do a quick study what the verse means (the double use of "die") in the original language.

 

[Salty]

OK - ENOUGH INSULTS HAVE BEEN THROWN AROUND

Austin - you said "Van, you are not a Greek scholar"
So please tell us what your qualifications are?

 

[MrW]

I take this as rejecting Revelations 13:8 and 17:8 say some names were not written since the founding of humanity. Or perhaps Jesus did indeed die about 2000 years ago and thus was not yet slain from the founding of humanity until about 2000 years ago.

Pointless to spend time debating the obvious.

It's Revelation, not plural. Only one "The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ". Not several.
It's no rejection. God planned Christ's death, burial, and resurrection from the foundation of the world.
It was not an afterthought. Therefore, it was inevitable that it happen. I think the smart boys call it "prophetic past tense", even though it's future.

 

[MrW]

In Adam, all die, for that all have sinned. If you're in Adam, you're lost. If you're in Christ you're saved.

It is patently obvious from reading the New Testament Christ's knowledge was veiled while on Earth as a man.

 

[AustinC]

OK - ENOUGH INSULTS HAVE BEEN THROWN AROUND

Austin - you said "Van, you are not a Greek scholar"
So please tell us what your qualifications are?

Well, first you actually received extensive training in koine greek, by people who have spent their lives studying the language. Then you spend years of research on your own, writing papers on the subject and being peer reviewed. Finally, you become the teacher of the next generation of Greek learners.

Does Van have his phD in Greek?

No. He is an amateur, but he goes around asserting that the translations of greek scholars are inferior to his own translations. So, yes, I find his comments regarding translations to be weak and if no value.

 

[Van]

It's Revelation, not plural. Only one "The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ". Not several.
It's no rejection. God planned Christ's death, burial, and resurrection from the foundation of the world.
It was not an afterthought. Therefore, it was inevitable that it happen. I think the smart boys call it "prophetic past tense", even though it's future.

LOL, I know that. In order for this boards software to link to the verse, I thought (mistakenly) that you had to write Revelations like you have to write Psalms 1 rather than Psalm 1.

I have no problem saying God planned to slay Jesus before the foundation of the world (before the founding of humanity). Not how the corruption reads.

Can you give me an example of a "prophetic past tense?" I believe you will find them actually in the text, and not added by rewriting the text.

 

[37818]

Many, if not all, young earth creationist believe by Adam's sin brought physician death into creation. Personally I believe physical death existed before the fall. So death besides physical death itself was a result.

So ". . . But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in . . . that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . ."
And the liar " . . . said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: . . ."

I believe Jesus said of this, ". . . He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, . . . "

 

[MrW]

No way. There was no death until mankind sinned.

 

[MrW]

LOL, I know that. In order for this boards software to link to the verse, I thought (mistakenly) that you had to write Revelations like you have to write Psalms 1 rather than Psalm 1.

I have no problem saying God planned to slay Jesus before the foundation of the world (before the founding of humanity). Not how the corruption reads.

Can you give me an example of a "prophetic past tense?" I believe you will find them actually in the text, and not added by rewriting the text.

There are many instances in the Book of the Revelation. The book is about "what it is, what it was, and what it shall be", and though "what it shall be" is written as prophecy (the future foretold), yet it is written in the past tense. I suppose a reason for this is that it is absolutely sure to happen, to the point that it is appropriate to state it as if it already has.

 

[MrW]

biblegateway.com is a quick and easy way to make Scripture quotes. Have it open in another tab (unless you're using your phone).

 

[37818]

(the future foretold), yet it is written in the past tense.

Like Isaiah 53. Like Romans 8:30.

 

[Van]

There are many instances in the Book of the Revelation. The book is about "what it is, what it was, and what it shall be", and though "what it shall be" is written as prophecy (the future foretold), yet it is written in the past tense. I suppose a reason for this is that it is absolutely sure to happen, to the point that it is appropriate to state it as if it already has.

But you could not cite even one example, and you did not address that the grammatical construction is NOT, repeat found in Revelation 13:8, nor 17:8. Names were not written (and others presumably written) since or after the foundation of the world (or founding of humanity) in the Lamb's book of life who was slain.

 

[JonC]

Well, first you actually received extensive training in koine greek, by people who have spent their lives studying the language. Then you spend years of research on your own, writing papers on the subject and being peer reviewed. Finally, you become the teacher of the next generation of Greek learners.

Does Van have his phD in Greek?

No. He is an amateur, but he goes around asserting that the translations of greek scholars are inferior to his own translations. So, yes, I find his comments regarding translations to be weak and if no value.

I think he was asking for your qualifications.

We get these types of insults often, so it is a fair question.

You and I disagree on some theological areas. I have a Masters degree in theology and studied koine Greek at the graduate level for a couple of years. Does that mean my view automatically trumps those who don't have a formal education in theology or Greek? No, of course not.

So we need to consider what is posted, not necessarily the person posting.