Bible Study

[Martin Marprelate]

No one is brushing all the experts off, but to deny sometimes some experts are obviously wrong is without merit. Clearly the ESV mistranslation of Revelation 13:8 (as well as the NLT) is agenda driven. This is not only my "opinion" but the opinion of the vast majority of translators.

Well we're all waiting with baited breath for @Van to tell us why it is clear to him that the ESV translation of Rev. 13:8 is 'agenda driven' and why saying that without explanation is not 'brushing off the experts.'

Thus I am guilty of adhering to the biblical command to "investigate, search out, and inquire thoroughly."

If you are guilty of that, surely you will want to share the results of your investigation, searching out and thorough inquiry?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@AustinC,
If I have counted correctly, 14 out of a total of 32 Bible versions say it is the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. That means that 18 versions say it is the names that were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.
Hardly a conclusive number one way or the other. Yet @Van says that the 'vast majority of translators' agree with him.

As they used to say in Rowan & Martin's 'Laugh in' programme back in the 1960s, "Vairy interesting ................ but stupid!"

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Let's just say that Van's 'investigations' are not exactly a plumb line of the truth.

 

[AustinC]

When two experts hold differing views, one and perhaps both are wrong. The choice of one view over another view is not "translation work" as both views are expressed in English. No one is brushing all the experts off, but to deny sometimes some experts are obviously wrong is without merit. Clearly the ESV mistranslation of Revelation 13:8 (as well as the NLT) is agenda driven. This is not only my "opinion" but the opinion of the vast majority of translators.

Please provide documentation of these vast majority of translators.

 

[Van]

I take it that the question is whether it is the Book of Life that was written from the foundation of the world, or the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. Will you tell us, please, why you think it is one or the other? Is there a variation in the texts or is there some other reason for your preference?

I have already explained this, why ask questions if you ignore the answers. The experts apply the timing, i.e. since the founding of humanity, to when names were not written (and presumably other names were written) in the Lamb's book of life. Note this matches what is clearly said in Revelation 17:8. It matches what your version, the NKJV, says in Revelation 17:8.

 

[Van]

Well, if you are reading and comparing, no need for formal study.

However, if you post in a public’ forum your repeated assertion that certain passages are better understood with different definitions of Greek Words and phrases… it would be important to show some expertise in your knowledge of Biblical Greek.

And you haven’t done that. In fact, just the opposite. Your posts concerning Biblical Greek demonstrate limited understanding at best.

Couple that with your lack of humility and inability to accept any type of criticism and the result is threads that edify no one and accomplish nothing.

peace to you

LOL, this poster posts one material false statement after another with impunity. Did I ever say to use different definitions than found in the Lexicon definitions? Nope

Has this poster simply addressed my qualifications, rather than what I have said? Yes, so another rule violation posted with immunity.

Are my posts based on knowledge of Greek, or based on knowledge acquired by reading English. Reading English.

Canadyjd's post reflects malice aforethought rather than bible study. And note all those listed are also agenda driven sycophants. The practice of one group of like minded individuals being allowed to violate truth and decorum should stop.

 

[Van]

Please provide documentation of these vast majority of translators.

You did in post 17.

 

[Van]

Are we to peddle or trade in the word of God? Nope. We are to share His word, undiluted and unadulterated.2 Corinthians 2:17

 

[AustinC]

Are we to peddle or trade in the word of God? Nope. We are to share His word, undiluted and unadulterated.2 Corinthians 2:17

So why do you dilute it and adulterate it by demanding that your translation is great, but the translations you hate have an "agenda?"

Van, at some point you have to point your finger at yourself and admit you are wrong.

 

[Van]

2 Timothy 2:15-18 (NASB)
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have gone astray from the truth,

Here we see we are to be "diligent" to accurately handle the "word of truth." Do we need to hold a man-made degree in Greek to study and share the results of our study? Or do we need to possess "Gnostic knowledge" bestowed in accredited schools? Do we believe in the "priesthood of believers" or in the "priesthood" of Greek speakers or Latin speakers or Hebrew speakers?

Do we need a "Phd" in Greek to use a "Lexicon" written in English, or use an "Exhaustive Concordance" written in English or a "Reverse Interlinear" written in English? Or could we simply use our discipleship training on how to study God's word?

When we see claims by those who apparently do not study that you need a degree to study and share, beware such views are the antithesis of Christ's teachings.

Luke 8:15 (NASB)
“But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word with a good and virtuous heart, and hold it firmly, and produce fruit with perseverance.

Are we open to the message of God's word, and can be "hold it firmly" without careful study so we are not blown about by every wind of doctrine?

How are we to "make disciples" teaching them "all Christ commanded" if we have not learned what those commands are? Do we thirst for the pure word of God, or are we happy to walk in the furrows of other people?

 

[canadyjd]

LOL…..
Are my posts based on knowledge of Greek, or based on knowledge acquired by reading English. Reading English…...

Thank you for acknowledging your posts are not based on the knowledge of Biblical Greek.

You seem very upset. I have no malice toward you, Van.

I will leave you to it. Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Exodus 18:15 (NASB)
Moses said to his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God."

Question, if we study God's word, are we not "inquiring of God?" Or should we just accept what the Priests tell us the Latin Bible says.

Deuteronomy 13:12-14
“If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to live in, anyone saying that some worthless men have gone out from among you and have seduced the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let’s go and serve other gods’ (whom you have not known), then you shall investigate, search out, and inquire thoroughly.

Question, if we are barred from investigating which biblical view is found in scripture, are we not following "other gods?"

 

[Van]

In order to study scripture using an Exhaustive concordance, Lexicon and Reverse interlinear, you must obtain these study aids.

The NAS digital exhaustive concordance costs about $30.00. With it you can do word searches.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have already explained this, why ask questions if you ignore the answers. The experts apply the timing, i.e. since the founding of humanity, to when names were not written (and presumably other names were written) in the Lamb's book of life. Note this matches what is clearly said in Revelation 17:8. It matches what your version, the NKJV, says in Revelation 17:8.

So you believe that the ESV translation of Revelation 13:8 is correct?? '...And all who dwell on the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.' So why do you regard said translation as 'agenda driven'?

However when a group of experts disagree with an agenda driven mis-translation such as the ESV and RSV treatment of Revelation 13:8, we can side with the NKJV, NASB, NET and LEB.

The NKJV takes the other side of the argument. 'All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.'

Maybe you need to make your mind up. Or is it because you have suddenly discovered Revelation 17:8 that you have changed your mind?

 

[Van]

So you believe that the ESV translation of Revelation 13:8 is correct?? '...And all who dwell on the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.' So why do you regard said translation as 'agenda driven'? [Because "apo" means since, not before!!!]

The NKJV takes the other side of the argument. 'All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.' [I have explained this three times now, stop pretending to be obtuse.]

Maybe you need to make your mind up. Or is it because you have suddenly discovered Revelation 17:8 that you have changed your mind?

I have already explained that the NET footnote made the connection concerning Revelation 13:8. See post #4.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have already explained that the NET footnote made the connection concerning Revelation 13:8. See post #4.

Your post #4 is simply a rant. It contains no information about your understanding of Revelation 13:8 whatsoever. I don't have a NET footnote, whatever that may be.

The important point about Revelation 13:8 is whether it is the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world, or whether it is the names in the Book of Life that have been written in it from the Foundation of the world (I.e. from the beginning. Genesis 1:1). The NKJV translation is helpful because it preserves the word order of the Greek more closely.
'All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.'
As it is written there, it appears to support the meaning of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. However, it is important to know that there is no punctuation in 1st Century koine Greek, nor for a long time afterwards. If we add a comma to the sentence, we change its meaning.
'All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the book of life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.' Now the reading supports the idea of the Lamb's book of life having been written from the foundation of the world.
So which one is right? 1 Peter 1:20 says that God chose Christ for the task of redeeming His people 'before the foundation of the world' and it might be objected that the phrase 'from the foundation of the world' is too far removed from the verb 'written' to refer to the book of life. If that was all the argument, then we would have to say that it is the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. But as you say, there is a parallel passage in Revelation 17:8. 'And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.' The Lamb is not mentioned here so the meaning is clear.

Now, I expect you want to read these verses as if names are being added to the book of life at various times from the foundation of the world. Not so! The verb 'written,' both in Rev 13:8 and 17:8 is gegraptai, the Perfect Passive of grapho, 'to write.' The Perfect Tense denotes a completed action. The names have been written, once and for all, in the book of life, since the foundation of the world. This is a wonderful comfort to the saints on earth who are experiencing persecutions or the temptations of Satan. Their names are recorded eternally in that book of life, and the Lamb who was slain on their behalf has purchased them to live with Him eternally (Revelation 5:9).

Concerning the 'agenda-driven' E.S.V., it really makes no difference whether the names are in the book 'before' or 'from' the foundation of the world. They have been there since time began. I expect the ESV translators chose 'before' to correspond with 1 Peter 1:20; Ephesians 1:4 and Titus 1:2.

 

[canadyjd]

In order to study scripture using an Exhaustive concordance, Lexicon and Reverse interlinear, you must obtain these study aids.

The NAS digital exhaustive concordance costs about $30.00. With it you can do word searches.

This sounds like a good foundation to start a study.

I want to make an observation and I hope you don’t take offense.

The lexicons are dictionaries. They give you the range of possible meanings of words. Like all words, the context determines meaning.

What I have noticed is that you look at the range of meanings of words in the lexicon. You then claim the word “could be translated” as “such in such”.

The point I have tried to make to you is that just because a word has a possible meaning doesn’t mean you can apply that meaning to any passage.

The way in which you attempt to apply meaning to words and phrases is contrary to the context, which makes the translation false.

peace to you

 

[37818]

This sounds like a good foundation to start a study.

I want to make an observation and I hope you don’t take offense.

The lexicons are dictionaries. They give you the range of possible meanings of words. Like all words, the context determines meaning.

What I have noticed is that you look at the range of meanings of words in the lexicon. You then claim the word “could be translated” as “such in such”.

The point I have tried to make to you is that just because a word has a possible meaning doesn’t mean you can apply that meaning to any passage.

The way in which you attempt to apply meaning to words and phrases is contrary to the context, which makes the translation false.

peace to you

Do you have oñe good case example?

 

[canadyjd]

Do you have oñe good case example?

Ok, in Philippians 1:6 you have the Greek word “ev” (in). “He who began a good work in you will complete it…..”

The Greek word “ev” means “in” or “among”. Since the Greek word for “you” is plural, the word “ev” should be translated “among”, instead of “in”.

That makes the translation, “He who began a good work among you will complete it….”

So, instead of the commonly believe verse supporting sanctification, you have a verse supporting perseverance in the midst of persecution.

And…. since one of the major themes of Philippians is perseverance in the midst of persecution, that translation is consistent with the context.

BTW, I didn’t come with that in my own. My Greek prof in seminary (an expert) pointed that out to the class.

peace to you

 

[37818]

Ok, in Philippians 1:6 you have the Greek word “ev” (in). “He who began a good work in you will complete it…..”

The Greek word “ev” means “in” or “among”. Since the Greek word for “you” is plural, the word “ev” should be translated “among”, instead of “in”.

That makes the translation, “He who began a good work among you will complete it….”

So, instead of the commonly believe verse supporting sanctification, you have a verse supporting perseverance in the midst of persecution.

And…. since one of the major themes of Philippians is perseverance in the midst of persecution, that translation is consistent with the context.

BTW, I didn’t come with that in my own. My Greek prof in seminary (an expert) pointed that out to the class.

peace to you

". . . Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: . . ."
". . . Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work .among you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: . . ."
Sanctification begins prior to our regeneration. So either way "in" or "among" preservation is meant. So I am not understanding your point.