Featured Concerning Immature Christians

Here's the reason.
The BB is a forum for discussing theology. This forum isn't about an immature Christian who is ignorant of theology and still has a huge bag of carnal, worldliness, that has not been addressed.
Read Pilgrims Progress and you see the process of growing in understanding. From the narrow gate to the cross, Christian still carries his burden. From the cross to the Celestial City, Christian goes through a process of sanctification and theological learning. Move to the second part of the book and you see Christians wife and children walking toward the City and being catechized in the faith.

The BB is where characters discuss their theology along the way and we point out errors that are being taught as truth.

In this forum we address the unfortunate tendency of humans to demand that they be the cause of their belief not God. The tendency of humans to emphasize themselves as the cooperative force that allowed or accepted God's "proposal."

From a theological perspective, that thought of "accepting and allowing" God or that thought that God "offers a proposal" is untenable.
This is a theology forum. Here, we discuss the process by which God chose to save His chosen saints.

 

Great that you quote scripture. Please provide commentary.
How is this argument in Romans 10 a continuation of the argument Paul has been making from Romans 1 through Romans 9?

When we look at the whole we see that God is the cause of our salvation, our faith, our justification, our sanctification and our glorification. Paul is making no distinction between how God works with Jews as compared to Gentiles. God's grace does not see cultural distinctions. Paul has been driving this point home from chapter 1 onward, that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. There is only those who are saved by grace alone, justified by faith alone, made holy by God alone, and glorified by God alone.

So, thank you for sharing such a rich passage of God's word.

 

Did you read what I wrote?

The whole of scripture interprets the singular verse. Since you quoted the passage, you can provide commentary rather than say "see v9".

How is it that you ignore all of scripture and say "v9" is the only scripture that tells us how God saves? Is it because you come with a presupposition and then look for anything that you imagine would fit your presupposition?

In any case, it is your responsibility to explain your verses and show how the rest of scripture teaches what you are teaching.

 

Was Abraham chosen by God before or after he believed? Looking at scripture did God chose people because they believed or did God choose people and then they believed? (Hint: It's the latter. God chose Abram, then Abram believed. God is the cause of a person believing.,)

 

How did Abraham come to believe????

It's because God chose him and promised him by making a Covenant with him.
God is the cause of Abraham's belief, which is entirely why it was considered righteous. Can you not see this?

 

As far as, the order of Salvation being One Way all throughout scripture, I borrowed heavily from John Gill, to say this;

Just as Romans 3 comes before Romans 10, where in Romans 3 we see things about the condition that God finds a sinner in, when He goes to call them to Salvation:

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

So, the sinner is lost and is brought to that knowledge by the word of God:

Genesis 15:4
"And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir."

So, the Word of the Lord came to Abraham for home to first learn what?

That he was "ungodly" and in need of Salvation, as we see here:

Romans: 4:[5] "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

You need to see those words "the ungodly", as God spoke to Abraham, about what?

About Jesus being nailed to cross because of Abraham's sin, in the Gospel;

"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." Galatians 3:8.

Abraham believed in the promise of God, that Abraham would have a very numerous seed;

AND Abraham believed that the Messiah would spring forth and come from his seed;

Abraham believed in the Messiah being promised to him, by God, as his Saviour and Redeemer;

So, when we read,
Genesis 15:6
"And he believed in the LORD", what was it Abraham believed that God had spoken to him?

We learn later that he knew he was ungodly and God preached the Gospel to him, so Abraham believed, "in the Word of the Lord;'' in the essential Word of the Lord, i.e., Abraham believed in Christ the Lord, as and for, his righteousness;

It is Jesus Christ Who obtained Perfect Righteousness by being born of a virgin and living Perfectly under the Law of God.

It is Jesus being a Perfect Sacrifice for him that Abraham believed.

Jesus and His Righteousness was THE OBJECT of Abraham's belief and/ or faith.

And God credited Jesus and His Righteousness to Abraham for Abraham's righteousness.

Belief and Faith are the result of God Granting Salvation in the New Birth and are the evidence of Abraham being Saved, and Given belief and Faith, as the Gifts of God.

So, it is not the act of Abraham's faith, or belief, as a 'Way of Salvation', but the object of his faith; Jesus Christ and His Righteousness.

It is not even the promise he believed, but it was WHAT was promised and WHO was promised, and that was Christ and His Righteousness and by the faith God Gave Abraham THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS CHRIST, which was imputed to him without works

and this all took place while Abraham was an uncircumcised person, for the proof of which the apostle produces this passage, Romans 4:3;

Then, as you read down through the passage, you see the rest of this;

Romans 4:[3] "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness".

[4] "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace (gift), but of debt."

[5] "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him (on Jesus Christ and His Work of Accomplishing Salvation by the Gospel) that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Abraham, as an ungodly Gentile, was Given faith to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as the Object of that faith, and in Jesus' Righteousness, which was then Imputed to Abraham for his righteousness.

Abraham believed in Jesus' Righteousness being Imputed to him, as his righteousness and that that Perfect Life credited to him, justified him before God.

Abram was not justified before God by his own works, but by the Righteousness of Christ revealed by the Gift of faith, when the ungodly are Given faith, where that faith is the means by which God connects the Perfect Righteousness of Jesus in Salvation to be received by the soul being Saved.

The Perfect Righteousness that is imputed comes from outside of the man, and the imputation of the Righteousness of Christ without works depends upon the will of God and is imputed by God the Father, Who, Predestinated, Called, (as in:
Genesis 15:5; "And he brought him forth abroad, (called him) and said), and Gave them faith to believe the Gospel, and understand that they were Saved and Justified, by God, Who Gives and uses the faith He Gives us, to enable God to Relate to us and us to relate to Him, Spiritually.

Faith and belief are vehicles, or the way and means, God Gives and uses.

They are not a description of 'How God Saves souls'.

They are the result of Salvation.

Salvation is of the Lord, Who is the Cause of Salvation.

Jesus is the Savior.

You must be Born again.

Including Abraham.

 

I believe we need to call this servant Saved.

The saved servant had been commiting idolatry, but promised to only sacrifice to The Lord, now.

The Lord pardons His saved servant for idolatry, not for Salvation.

Again, for idolatry.

I am going to call this scribe saved, also. Jesus tells him to 'believe', for all things to be possible to Jim, as a believer.

The scribe, then, even though he was saved asks the Lord for the kind of faith or belief, as a saved soul, to receive healing for his son, or other things possible from his Lord.

I say he was already saved and was pardoned and converted from worshipping idols.

Or, "I am a believing believer, in Salvation, help my lack of faith, or unbelief, to receive healing from You, my Lord", etc.

The issue is what they genuinely are trusting in to save their soul.

To what extent have they "believe on Christ"?

Because, they may, in fact, only "believe on Christ"?, mentally, superficially, not God-wrought with Repentance and Faith, as youention next"

If so, they may just "may also believe he must perform good works to attain or maintain salvation", genuinely, from their heart and soul, having never really believed, Savingly, in the finished Work of Christ and on His Person, for their 'salvation'.

We would want to talk to him about that FOR HIS SAKE.

Then, could some folks who remain totally unschooled in the Word and seem immature, in the sense that they don't seem to have a 'teachable Holy Spirit' in them, be lost in their sins, having a false profession of 'faith'?

You bet. Unfortunately, for them, so.

COULD HE BE SAVED and ignorant and 'worship wrong', and commit idolatry.

Yeah, we just saw that in II Kings.

Then, once they are taught, since they would have a teachable Spirit, of the Holy Spirit being in their soul that always testifies the the Word, could they be Enabled to learn from the Holy Spirit and the Bible the word of God more perfectly?

Of course.

The issue is just as you say here;

In the case of a lost soul, however, we would not find them to have a 'teachable Spirit', or to ask for pardon from the Lord for their idolatry.

That would be the indication of a true Salvation.

Repentance of SIN.

In the case where there is only mental assent to the historical fact of 'Jesus', that 'belief' hasn't acknowledged or been convicted of or repented of SIN.

There can be 'belief without Regeneration.

That is surface form of the religiously lost and is ETERNALLY Serious, if not ETERNALLY FATAL.

That 'belief' that is a work needs to be qualified doesn't it?

If the 'belief' is spiritual dead 'belief', then that could be a faithless work and not a saving belief, as above.

If the 'belief' is Spiritually wrought by God, it is Savingly Believing, as a Gift from God, AS THE WORK OF GOD.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Belief is the Work of God.

So, if someone uses the Bible language and wording of "I believe", as we saw above, am I automatically in a position to know whether it is a fleshly carnal false 'belief' or a Savingly Spiritual Gift of 'belief', ( that came with Repentance of their sin) from the Regeneration of the New Birth?

No, I am not in that position to know, especially since the wording used is Biblical, for a saved soul.

To say, "belief is a work, therefore you think you saved yourself!", or by someone using 'faith' or 'belief' in their post, for me to make the knee-jerk reaction and rejection of their testimony, by saying, "it sounds like works to me", would be a little shortsighted.

Because, it IS WORK.

The question would still hang as to who's or Who's WORK it is?

The work of the flesh under the Law, to nominally 'believe' on the surface, only, intellectually ?

Or the Work of God that they believed, truly in Jesus, by His Grace.

well....

There you go, with the preached word.

What has been preached?

Sin?

To convict their sin-cursed soul?

Repentance?

Jesus?

His Work on the cross where SIN nailed Him to it and He died and was Raised Again?

That is going to be 'the Word of Faith's, the Word that brings faith, the power of God unto Salvation.

Remember, the Word of the Lord came to Abraham. To teach him what?

'The Word of Faith', the Word that brings faith, the power of God unto Salvation.

The Word to the lost soul comes first, even in this passage.

When God works 'the Word of Faith' in a soul, He brings them to conviction of their sin and Grants them Repentance and Faith, as evidence that He has worked the Spiritual New Birth in them.

Then, they believe and "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

So, they have HEARD THE WORD about the Lord Jesus Christ and "that God hath raised him from the dead".

That is how God Saves souls, through the Word preached, Conviction of their sins by it, then Repentance of those sins Granted by God, with the Gift of Spiritual faith and belief, in Jesus.

Many were chosen to what? Salvation?

No.

So, they weren't chosen by God to Salvation and then wound up lost.

The words are, 'many are called", not "many are chosen".

Many are called by the Word and the Gospel, OUTWARDLY, superficially, again, without a Saving Spiritual experience of Salvation and that OUTWARD call is always ineffective to bring Salvation.

As below, the INWARD call, in the soul, that is the Spiritual Work of God to Give genuine belief is Always Effectual.

When God calls His chosen people through the Word, He Enables them to hear it.

He Gives them hearing ears, to hear Spiritually, the call of their Great Shepard to His sheep.

If we answer, surrender, submit, and in obedience believe, it is because God has Worked His Work of belief in our heart and soul through His Word and Given us Repentance of our sins and Faith in the Saving Work of Jesus.

"thou shalt be saved".

Thou shall show evidence by your Repentance and Belief in Jesus that you shalt be saved, and forgiven of your sins, ETERNALLY.

Thou shalt have a Home in Heaven, reserved for thee.

 

<Thread Swamper>

 

If it was the fact of God choosing some one that cause them to believe as you seem to be alluding to then you have to account for this person that was chosen:
Luk 6:13 When daylight came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also designated as apostles:
Luk 6:14 Simon, whom He named Peter, and his brother Andrew; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew;
Luk 6:15 Matthew and Thomas; James son of Alphaeus and Simon called the Zealot;
Luk 6:16 Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

It is not the being chosen but rather the persons belief that is credited as righteousness. How can you not see this? Your denying scripture.

Rom_4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Gal_3:6 So also, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Jas_2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God.

Come on Austin you keep saying **trust scripture** so why don't you trust scripture?

 

Sliverhair, Jesus tells you why Judas was chosen. "That the scriptures might be fulfilled."
God didn't choose Judas to save Judas. God chose Judas to fulfill the scriptures so that Jesus would be betrayed.
This is the Sovereign right of God to do so. God is under no obligation to save wicked people. He is good and just in never choosing one person for salvation. He is also good and just in using wicked humanity to accomplish his will. We read in Habakkuk 1 that God chose Babylon to accomplish his judgment and purpose on Israel. With Judas, we read how God used Judas to accomplish his purpose in sacrificing Jesus on the cross.

Sliverhair, you have to either accept God's Sovereignty or you will keep imagining God is unfair for not choosing everyone unto salvation. So, you've created this false doctrine that humans are autonomous and outside of God's power so that they are the ones who cause their own salvation.

Your humanism is awful theology.

 

I know why Judas was chosen but remember you have equated being chosen as being the ones to be saved. You pagan theology is awful. You need to start trust the bible and not your Calvinism.

Austin I will never accept your deterministic version of the sovereignty of God. God is sovereign just as the bible shows but you are not willing to allow God to be sovereign. He has to fit into your Calvinist mold. Your comments are rather tiring as you keep bringing up the same old canards, God is unfair, God is not sovereign, your a humanist come on Austin try something new or at least use scripture to prove your point.

The normal response ones gets from a Calvinist when anyone posts scripture that shows the error of the Calvinist view is I have dealt with that before. Giving us your philosophy is not dealing with scripture.

 

Can God not choose vessels of wrath and vessels of righteousness? Are you unaware of Romans 9?

That you "will never accept" God's determination over your life tells us much more about your humanism than anything else. You show us that you don't want God as your Sovereign King, but you do want God to do whatever you bid him to do.

 

First of all to the one who started the OP to me one that has been serving God is not an immature Christian... Give that to a new believer, that never applies to a seasoned one... Being ill informed or ignorant does not mean you are immature... Some grow in grace, faith and practice faster than others do, does that make them immature?... Remember we were all once immature Christian, then we were taught the true meaning of the word... I'm not an immature Christian anymore and neither are you... Brother Glen

1 Philippians 1: 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

 

You are just showing your total lack of comprehension of the English language. Try to understand this, I will never accept your deterministic version of the sovereignty of God. Your view of the sovereignty of God is flawed and you do not even comprehend that fact. You are following Calvinism not the bible, which is really sad.

But at least you admitted that your life is totally controlled just like a puppet so it really means you do not even know if what you believe is true. Since you have a flawed view of God then you can not even know if the god you are following is the true God of the bible or just a figment of your imagination. You really have nothing to base your faith on as it is not even your faith but one that your god gave you. That is the reality of your flawed Calvinistic view.