The True Gospel of Christ's Saving Death

[37818]

. . . Christ died for His sheep according to His words while on this earth.

Yes. And that doesn't disallow Him paying for the sins of many. Matthew 22:14, ". . . For many are called, but few are chosen. . . ." Chosen aka elect.

 

[37818]

Christ did not die for anyone not given to Him by His Father before the world began.

The word of God teaches no such thing.

 

[KenH]

Yes. And that doesn't disallow Him paying for the sins of many. Matthew 22:14, ". . . For many are called, but few are chosen. . . ." Chosen aka elect.

Sounds like you are teaching the false doctrine that there will be people in Hell for whom Christ was their Surety and paid their sin debt; if so, then you are teaching Christ paid their sin debt in full, and then God is going to make them paid for their sin debt themselves, also.

 

[KenH]

The word of God teaches no such thing.

You can say that from now until the second coming of Christ and you will still be wrong, as the Bible clearly that Christ died for His sheep, according to His very own words while on this earth. You cannot find anywhere in the Bible where Christ said that He died for the goats.

 

[KenH]

The word of God teaches no such thing.

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

 

[37818]

Christ effectually died for those given to Him by the Father to be their Surety and pay their sin debt. Thus, their sin debt is really paid, and they can never be charged with sin again as Christ paid for ALL of their sins. Their sins were imputed to Christ and Christ's perfect righteousness was imputed to them. They are TOTALLY secure in Christ and His finished work.

Christ did not die for anyone not given to Him by His Father before the world began. It is what the Scriptures teach. God said it and that settles it.

2 Peter 2:1, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . ."
Jude 1:4, ". . . For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."
1 John 5:10, ". . . he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. . . ."

 

[KenH]

2 Peter 2:1, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . ."

Jude 1:4, ". . . For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."

' and even denying the Lord that bought them; not the Lord Jesus Christ, but God the Father; for the word κυριος is not here used, which always is where Christ is spoken of as the Lord, but δεσποτης; and which is expressive of the power which masters have over their servants, and which God has over all mankind; and wherever this word is elsewhere used, it is spoken of God the Father, whenever applied to a divine person, as in Luke 2:29 and especially this appears to be the sense, from the parallel text in Jude 1:4 where the Lord God denied by those men is manifestly distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, and by whom these persons are said to be bought: the meaning is not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for Christ is not intended; and besides, whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense; see Acts of the Apostles 20:28 whereas here is not the least hint of anything of this kind: add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ are the elect of God only, the people of Christ, his sheep and friends, and church, and who are never left to deny him so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or deceive, or be deceived finally and totally by damnable heresies, and bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ's purchase would be in vain, and the ransom price be paid for nought; but the word "bought" regards temporal mercies and deliverance, which these men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord; both by words, delivering out such tenets as are derogatory to the glory of the divine perfections, and which deny one or other of them, and of his purposes, providence, promises, and truths; and by works, turning the doctrine of the grace of God into lasciviousness, being disobedient and reprobate to every good work; that they should act this part against the Lord who had made them, and upheld them in their beings and took care of them in his providence, and had followed them with goodness and mercy all the days of their lives; just as Moses aggravates the ingratitude of the Jews in Deuteronomy 32:6 from whence this phrase is borrowed, and to which it manifestly refers: "do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise! is not he thy Father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?" '

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible Commentary on 2 Peter 2:1

 

[DaveXR650]

Advocates of universal atonement will appeal to emotional trends and not exegetical truths. There are even professing Calvinists who will treat the doctrine of Christ’s particular and effectual death like it is a trivial matter.

I think that's because there is always a tendency to elevate theology to where it becomes a first tier gospel issue. Everyone who hears the gospel and comes to Christ will be saved. And they all must come with a childlike, trusting type of faith. No one will be saved who does not come like that. Now theologically, you may believe that such a person was predestined and his sins were atoned for before time began - but that is not the gospel. And since the gospel message is that if you come you will be saved - then I would be careful so emphasizing a system that gives the impression that there might be those who want to come - but can't, either because their sins were not atoned for or they are not of the elect. Calvinism does not necessarily do that. But I see things presented in such a way that this becomes a very common deduction. Maybe there's a reason for that.

 

[DaveXR650]

Sounds like you are teaching the false doctrine that there will be people in Hell for whom Christ was their Surety and paid their sin debt; if so, then you are teaching Christ paid their sin debt in full, and then God is going to make them paid for their sin debt themselves, also.

@37818 once said in a post something to the effect that if a person doesn't know that Christ died for them then how could they reasonably be expected to come and receive Christ. I kind of blew him off, mainly because I read where Owen had said that you really didn't need to expect or presume anything when you come to Christ. But since then I have read other theologians who have said the same thing. Depending on exactly how the atonement works, it may well be of course impossible for people who Christ died for to end up in Hell but the problem is that if you can't tell people Christ died for them then you can't really tell them that "if you come to Him you will in no wise be cast out". Because that might not be true, just by following the logic. Now that would truly be a false doctrine.

 

[37818]

Sounds like you are teaching the false doctrine that there will be people in Hell for whom Christ was their Surety and paid their sin debt; if so, then you are teaching Christ paid their sin debt in full, and then God is going to make them paid for their sin debt themselves, also.

An accusation without substance.

Do you deny ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . ." Or ". . . . For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."

 

[37818]

. . . that Christ died for His sheep, . . .

This fundamental truth is not being denied.

 

[37818]

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Again, this fundamental truth is not being denied.

 

[37818]

' and even denying the Lord that bought them; not the Lord Jesus Christ, but God the Father; for the word κυριος is not here used, which always is where Christ is spoken of as the Lord, but δεσποτης; and which is expressive of the power which masters have over their servants, and which God has over all mankind; and wherever this word is elsewhere used, it is spoken of God the Father, whenever applied to a divine person, as in Luke 2:29 and especially this appears to be the sense, from the parallel text in Jude 1:4 where the Lord God denied by those men is manifestly distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, and by whom these persons are said to be bought: the meaning is not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for Christ is not intended; and besides, whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense; see Acts of the Apostles 20:28 whereas here is not the least hint of anything of this kind: add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ are the elect of God only, the people of Christ, his sheep and friends, and church, and who are never left to deny him so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or deceive, or be deceived finally and totally by damnable heresies, and bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ's purchase would be in vain, and the ransom price be paid for nought; but the word "bought" regards temporal mercies and deliverance, which these men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord; both by words, delivering out such tenets as are derogatory to the glory of the divine perfections, and which deny one or other of them, and of his purposes, providence, promises, and truths; and by works, turning the doctrine of the grace of God into lasciviousness, being disobedient and reprobate to every good work; that they should act this part against the Lord who had made them, and upheld them in their beings and took care of them in his providence, and had followed them with goodness and mercy all the days of their lives; just as Moses aggravates the ingratitude of the Jews in Deuteronomy 32:6 from whence this phrase is borrowed, and to which it manifestly refers: "do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise! is not he thy Father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?" '

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible Commentary on 2 Peter 2:1

2 Peter 2:1 δεσποτην refers to Christ per Jude 1:4 δεσποτην. And I understand this to be an essentual doctrine of Christ. 2 John 9, ". . . Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. . . ."

 

[percho]

' and even denying the Lord that bought them; not the Lord Jesus Christ, but God the Father; for the word κυριος is not here used, which always is where Christ is spoken of as the Lord, but δεσποτης; and which is expressive of the power which masters have over their servants, and which God has over all mankind; and wherever this word is elsewhere used, it is spoken of God the Father, whenever applied to a divine person, as in Luke 2:29 and especially this appears to be the sense, from the parallel text in Jude 1:4 where the Lord God denied by those men is manifestly distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, and by whom these persons are said to be bought: the meaning is not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for Christ is not intended; and besides, whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense; see Acts of the Apostles 20:28 whereas here is not the least hint of anything of this kind: add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ are the elect of God only, the people of Christ, his sheep and friends, and church, and who are never left to deny him so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or deceive, or be deceived finally and totally by damnable heresies, and bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ's purchase would be in vain, and the ransom price be paid for nought; but the word "bought" regards temporal mercies and deliverance, which these men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord; both by words, delivering out such tenets as are derogatory to the glory of the divine perfections, and which deny one or other of them, and of his purposes, providence, promises, and truths; and by works, turning the doctrine of the grace of God into lasciviousness, being disobedient and reprobate to every good work; that they should act this part against the Lord who had made them, and upheld them in their beings and took care of them in his providence, and had followed them with goodness and mercy all the days of their lives; just as Moses aggravates the ingratitude of the Jews in Deuteronomy 32:6 from whence this phrase is borrowed, and to which it manifestly refers: "do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise! is not he thy Father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?" '

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible Commentary on 2 Peter 2:1

Is the One who bought, the same One who sold?
δὲ σάρκικός εἰμι πεπραμένος ὑπὸ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν
Yet fleshly I sold under the sin
? Act of creation or evolution?
Is the One who reconciled the same as who gave a bill of divorce?

 

[KenH]

Do you deny

I deny none of the Scriptures.

 

[KenH]

it may well be of course impossible for people who Christ died for to end up in Hell but the problem is that if you can't tell people Christ died for them then you can't really tell them that "if you come to Him you will in no wise be cast out".

The command is to preach the gospel. God is absolutely totally sovereign. ALL those that God the Father gave to God the Son to be their Surety and to pay their sin debt will be made willing in the day of His power(Psalms 110:3). There is absolutely NO WAY that man can "mess up" or interfere or stop God's purpose to save ALL of His elect.

 

[Silverhair]

The only believers are the ones that God, the sovereign Creator of the universe, elected to salvation before the world began. Those not chosen before the world began will never be regenerated and granted the gifts of repentance toward God and faith toward Christ Jesus.

You make a number of claims but they based upon your misreading of scripture?

 

[KenH]

based upon your misreading of scripture?

No. I am simply saying what God's Word teaches.

 

[Silverhair]

Sounds like you are teaching the false doctrine that there will be people in Hell for whom Christ was their Surety and paid their sin debt; if so, then you are teaching Christ paid their sin debt in full, and then God is going to make them paid for their sin debt themselves, also.

Did you forget this scripture or do you just ignore it as it does not fit your errant theology?
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 

[Silverhair]

No. I am simply saying what God's Word teaches.

If that were true then we would not have any disagreement would we. You are reading into the text what you need to find. Your deterministic god is misleading you.