2 Thessalonians 2:13 What does it say?

[canadyjd]

….. because God hath chosen you from the beginning to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth”…. (as best as I can remember)….

I have seen this quote several times as a proof text…. To what end I am not sure. I think to show the “choosing” was based on our belief.

But….. is that what the verse says?

First… they are chosen from the beginning to salvation. That seems pretty self explanatory. Whatever else you believe about this “choosing” it is personal and it occurred from the beginning of human existence.

Second… the word “through”. Obviously the word “through” is giving the “how”. The question is, does “through” describe the choosing or does it describe the salvation? The context, in my opinion, is it describes the salvation… it is the “how” that salvation is accomplished.

Third… “sanctification of the Spirit”. This word is similar to “hagios” (Holy) and refers to being “set apart” for a specific (holy) purpose.

So far we have God choosing a people from the beginning and Holy Spirit setting them apart for salvation…

Forth… “and belief in the truth” Since “and” is used, it is connected to God Holy Spirit setting these people apart. The “truth” must refer to the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

So, according to this verse, God chose a specific group of people for salvation from the beginning. Those He chose were sanctified (set apart) by God Holy Spirit and we’re brought in that right relationship with God through belief in the truth and that too is connected to God Holy Spirit’s work in sanctifying them.

Let’s try to stay focused on the meaning of the passage.

peace to you

 

[37818]

I have seen this quote several times as a proof text…. To what end I am not sure. I think to show the “choosing” was based on our belief.

Two texts that teach ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit . . . ."
1 Peter 1:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[canadyjd]

Two texts that teach ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit . . . ."
1 Peter 1:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Let’s focus on 2 Thessalonians 2:13, for now.

The word “through” is referring to “salvation”, not “choosing”, do you agree?

peace to you

 

[37818]

The word “through” is referring to “salvation”, not “choosing”, do you agree?

No.
The choosing is part of to salvation. And in sanctification of the Spirit precedes both which takes place in time. "from the beginning." In the same way as into obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ, in 1 Peter 1:2.

 

[37818]

@canadyjd
FYI, those two references, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 1 Peter 1:2, are for me, the passages which lead me to the understanding sanctification preceded regeneration.
Later, John 17:17 then Hebrews 10:29 confirmed the view.

 

[Van]

In the beginning does not point to the beginning of anything specifically. In this verse, the beginning in view is the inauguration of the New Covenant. "From the beginning" refers to the span of time after inauguration, not before. Thus the idea is that those chosen are given to Christ spiritually, and Christ's promise is not cast those given out.

Grammatically the through describes the how and why of the verb chose. That is why some translations "fix" the text by changing the noun "salvation" into the verb "to be saved." They want to make "through faith in the truth" refer to being saved rather than being chosen.

Yes, sanctification by the Spirit, does refer to being set apart in Christ spiritually.

"though... belief in the truth" provides the basis of our election for salvation, thus a conditional election based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. See Romans 4:23-25

 

[canadyjd]

No.
The choosing is part of to salvation. And in sanctification of the Spirit precedes both which takes place in time. "from the beginning." In the same way as into obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ, in 1 Peter 1:2.

I’m not really sure what distinction you are making. You are saying the “sanctification” of God Holy Spirit precedes both the choosing and the salvation. I don’t see how that supports the argument that the “choosing” occurs in response to faith.

Paul makes the statement “God hath chosen you from the beginning to salvation”. That is a stand alone statement of truth.

Paul adds.., “through…” which either refers to the “choosing” or to the “salvation”. The context supports “through” as referring to the “salvation” and elaborates on that aspect since it mentions the work of God Holy Spirit in “sanctification” which is “setting apart” for a purpose which also refers to salvation.

peace to you

 

[37818]

I’m not really sure what distinction you are making. You are saying the “sanctification” of God Holy Spirit precedes both the choosing and the salvation. I don’t see how that supports the argument that the “choosing” occurs in response to faith.

Paul makes the statement “God hath chosen you from the beginning to salvation”. That is a stand alone statement of truth.

Paul adds.., “through…” which either refers to the “choosing” or to the “salvation”. The context supports “through” as referring to the “salvation” and elaborates on that aspect since it mentions the work of God Holy Spirit in “sanctification” which is “setting apart” for a purpose which also refers to salvation.

peace to you

I am of the point of view sanctification is what must precede our believing the things of God, John 17:17.

 

[canadyjd]

In the beginning does not point to the beginning of anything specifically. In this verse, the beginning in view is the inauguration of the New Covenant. "From the beginning" refers to the span of time after inauguration, not before. Thus the idea is that those chosen are given to Christ spiritually, and Christ's promise is not cast those given out.

Grammatically the through describes the how and why of the verb chose. That is why some translations "fix" the text by changing the noun "salvation" into the verb "to be saved." They want to make "through faith in the truth" refer to being saved rather than being chosen.

Yes, sanctification by the Spirit, does refer to being set apart in Christ spiritually.

"though... belief in the truth" provides the basis of our election for salvation, thus a conditional election based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. See Romans 4:23-25

The Jewish mindset would have recognized “from the beginning” to be referring to God creating the heavens and the earth since that word is used in Genesis. I believe that is what Paul had in mind and almost every commentary I read agrees.

However, I read one commentary that agreed with you that “from the beginning” referred to the beginning of the Christian gospel being preached. So we disagree.

I checked Bill Mounce commentary on the verse. He stated the same thing that I have been saying, that “through” is modifying “salvation” and not “choosing” and he gave the grammatical reason for it.

He even addressed the fact that the preposition used here is sometimes used as an adverb to modify a verb instead of a noun. There is no “fixing” as you stated, just proper understanding to Biblical Greek grammar in context.

If I knew how to link to his commentary, I would, but I’m not particularly knowledgeable in that area.

Thanks for the comment.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I am of the point of view sanctification is what must precede our believing the things of God, John 17:17.

I heartily agree. It is part of the “choosing”.

Thanks for the comments

peace to you

 

[Van]

The Jewish mindset would have recognized “from the beginning” to be referring to God creating the heavens and the earth since that word is used in Genesis. I believe that is what Paul had in mind and almost every commentary I read agrees.

However, I read one commentary that agreed with you that “from the beginning” referred to the beginning of the Christian gospel being preached. So we disagree.

I checked Bill Mounce commentary on the verse. He stated the same thing that I have been saying, that “through” is modifying “salvation” and not “choosing” and he gave the grammatical reason for it.

He even addressed the fact that the preposition used here is sometimes used as an adverb to modify a verb instead of a noun. There is no “fixing” as you stated, just proper understanding to Biblical Greek grammar in context.

If I knew how to link to his commentary, I would, but I’m not particularly knowledgeable in that area.

Thanks for the comment.

peace to you

1) From the beginning does not indicate by use of the phrase alone, that creation of the heavens and the earth are in view.

2) 2 Samuel 21:10 uses the phrase to indicate the beginning of a harvest.

3) Ecclesiastes 3:10 uses the phrase to indicate the entire span of time after creation, not a fixed point in time.

4) Isaiah 46:10 clearly uses the phrase to inaugurate a plan of God.

5) In Mark 10:6 the "from the beginning" is defined by "of creation" indicating other beginnings might otherwise be considered.

6) In Acts 26:4, Paul uses the phrase to describe the beginning of his life from his youth.

7) Contextually only the inauguration of the New Covenant fits, because those in immediate view are those known as siblings at that time.

8) In 1 John 2:24 we see the phrase used to refer when the audience first heard the gospel, not creation.

9) Mr. Mounce is at odds with the vast majority of translators such as the NKJV, NAS'B, LEB, and WEB. (BTW I have read his effort to rewrite the verse, changing a noun into a verb.)

10) Read 1 Peter 1:1-2 and acknowledge this passage too says people were chosen "by" the sanctifying work of the Spirit.
The argument against this view is agenda driven and made by Calvinists.

 

[canadyjd]

….

9) Mr. Mounce is at odds with the vast majority of translators such as the NKJV, NAS'B, LEB, and WEB. (BTW I have read his effort to rewrite the verse, changing a noun into a verb.)…..

Please cite your source that Mr. Mounce is at odds with the “vast majority” of translators. I’m guessing you are referring to “through” as modifying “salvation” and not “choosing”.

Mr. Mounce explained the use of Biblical Greek grammar in this context. If any specific scholar disagrees, please point him/her out and I will read what they say.

And, Mr. Mounce didn’t “change” anything in the text. He explains that there are times in Biblical Greek when the preposition “en” (in, into, through…,) can function as an adjective (for nouns) or as an adverb (for verbs)

That is a well known fact among biblical scholars.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Please cite your source that Mr. Mounce is at odds with the “vast majority” of translators. I’m guessing you are referring to “through” as modifying “salvation” and not “choosing”.

Mr. Mounce explained the use of Biblical Greek grammar in this context. If any specific scholar disagrees, please point him/her out and I will read what they say.

And, Mr. Mounce didn’t “change” anything in the text. He explains that there are times in Biblical Greek when the preposition “en” (in, into, through…,) can function as an adjective (for nouns) or as an adverb (for verbs)

That is a well known fact among biblical scholars.

peace to you

I cited my sources!!!~ You edited them out, the NASB, NKJV, LEB and WEB They all read "for or to salvation, and do not read "to be saved." Thus "through" modifies chose.

All the scholars translating 2 Thessalonians 2:13 in the above cited versions say "salvation" is a noun, not a verb. The translations that change the noun into a verb are outliers.

The issue is not how "en" can function in various verses, it is how it specifically functions in 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

And I see no response to the fact "from the beginning" refers to an unspecified beginning, not necessarily creation. Or the fact those chosen were part of the letter's audience, thus chosen after the inauguration of the New Covenant.

 

[canadyjd]

I cited my sources!!!~ You edited them out, the NASB, NKJV, LEB and WEB They all read "for or to salvation, and do not read "to be saved." Thus "through" modifies chose.

All the scholars translating 2 Thessalonians 2:13 in the above cited versions say "salvation" is a noun, not a verb. The translations that change the noun into a verb are outliers.

The issue is not how "en" can function in various verses, it is how it specifically functions in 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

And I see no response to the fact "from the beginning" refers to an unspecified beginning, not necessarily creation. Or the fact those chosen were part of the letter's audience, thus chosen after the inauguration of the New Covenant.

The quote I gave to start the thread says “…to salvation..,” I haven’t seen any that say “to be saved” and Mr. Mounce doesn’t say “to be saved” either, and specifically agrees it is a noun. so I don’t know what you are claiming.

God chose them “from the beginning” to salvation. I coveted that more than once. I specifically stated I disagreed with your position of a “unspecified time” and that Paul was referring to the creation.

I read half a dozen commentaries on the verse and all but one agreed it referred to from creation. None agreed with your “unspecified time” though one believed it meant from the beginning of the gospel going forth. I didn’t see any that stated you are chosen because of your faith. That contradicts the sanctification of the Holy Spirit which occurs prior to belief in this verse

The question is what does “through” modify? Mr. Mounce gives specific details of why the “en” refers to “salvation” in this context and not “choosing” including the flow of the discourse and other uses by Paul.

I understand your position and I disagree. The “through” is modifying “salvation” and not “choosing”.

Thanks for the conversation. We have made our positions clear. I don’t see anything else to add.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Mounce cites the ESV mistranslation in his effort to rewrite 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

The verse reads, “But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved (εις σωτηριαν) , through (εν) sanctification by the Spirit (αγιασμω πνευματος) and belief in the truth (πιστει αληθειας)” (ESV).

BTW, the sanctifying work of the spirit, found in 1 Peter 1:1-2 clearly shows the preposition modifies chose.

From Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those temporarily residing abroad (in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bithynia) who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by being set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with Jesus Christ's blood. May grace and peace be yours in full measure! (NET)

The phrase "from the beginning" refers to an unspecified time, but when it appears in a passage, usually the context points to a particular time frame, such as from the inauguration of the New Covenant to the end of the age using the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[canadyjd]

Mounce cites the ESV mistranslation in his effort to rewrite 2 Thessalonians 2:13.


BTW, the sanctifying work of the spirit, found in 1 Peter 1:1-2 clearly shows the preposition modifies chose.

From Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those temporarily residing abroad (in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bithynia) who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by being set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with Jesus Christ's blood. May grace and peace be yours in full measure! (NET)

The phrase "from the beginning" refers to an unspecified time, but when it appears in a passage, usually the context points to a particular time frame, such as from the inauguration of the New Covenant to the end of the age using the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Any good scholar is going to give the various translations. He explained his position based on the Biblical Greek and makes a compelling case that “through” is referring to “salvation” and not “choosing”

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Van]

Any good scholar is going to give the various translations. He explained his position based on the Biblical Greek and makes a compelling case that “through” is referring to “salvation” and not “choosing”

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

No, Mounce makes false claims about what "en" modifies. It does not modify a non-existent verb or a noun claimed to be acting as a verb, but instead, it describes the how and why of God's choice. His position is not based on Greek grammar, he just says Greek grammar may allow his outlier interpretation.

Here is what he claims: "so the prepositional phrase is externally modifying a noun, but in terms of its meaning it could be functioning adverbially relative to the verbal idea in the noun. "

Here is the fact as born out by 1 Peter 1:1-2, the preposition "en" is modifying the verb "chose" tell us the how and why of the choice.

 

[Van]

"From the beginning" does not point to the beginning of anything specifically. In this verse, the beginning in view is the inauguration of the New Covenant. "From the beginning" refers to the span of time after inauguration, not before. Thus the idea is that those chosen are given to Christ spiritually, and Christ's promise is not cast those given out. (John 6:37)

Grammatically the through describes the how and why of the verb chose. That is why some translations "fix" the text by changing the noun "salvation" into the verb "to be saved." They want to make "through faith in the truth" refer to being saved rather than being chosen, thus hiding the conditional election. (See ESV translation)

Yes, sanctification by the Spirit, does refer to being set apart in Christ spiritually.

"though... belief in the truth" provides the basis of our election for salvation, thus a conditional election based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. See Romans 4:23-25

 

[canadyjd]

No, Mounce makes false claims about what "en" modifies. It does not modify a non-existent verb or a noun claimed to be acting as a verb, but instead, it describes the how and why of God's choice. His position is not based on Greek grammar, he just says Greek grammar may allow his outlier interpretation.

Here is what he claims: "so the prepositional phrase is externally modifying a noun, but in terms of its meaning it could be functioning adverbially relative to the verbal idea in the noun. "

Well, I would hesitate to make the accusation of “false claims” toward a man widely accepted as an expert on Biblical Greek.

Why don’t you link to Mr. Mounce’s page so others can read everything he says about this passage and comment?

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

"From the beginning" does not point to the beginning of anything specifically. In this verse, the beginning in view is the inauguration of the New Covenant. "From the beginning" refers to the span of time after inauguration, not before. Thus the idea is that those chosen are given to Christ spiritually, and Christ's promise is not cast those given out. (John 6:37)

Grammatically the through describes the how and why of the verb chose. That is why some translations "fix" the text by changing the noun "salvation" into the verb "to be saved." They want to make "through faith in the truth" refer to being saved rather than being chosen, thus hiding the conditional election. (See ESV translation)

Yes, sanctification by the Spirit, does refer to being set apart in Christ spiritually.

"though... belief in the truth" provides the basis of our election for salvation, thus a conditional election based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. See Romans 4:23-25

And, as I have said, I disagree.

peace to you