Featured In the Garden

In my view, "Paradise" was the upper place of Hades. Re: Luke 16:19-31, Psalms 86:13, Deuteronomy 32:22, Acts of the Apostles 2:27-31.

 

Like Abraham and Lazarus.

 

Where was the rich man who gave Lazarus the crumbs from his table, after he died? Was he not in Abraham's bosom? And wasn't he in hellfire? Yet he could talk to Abraham, who was not in hellfire. And there was a great gulf between Abraham and those with him, and the rich man and those with him, so they could not pass back and forth, yet they were aware of each other.

It follows that "hades" had two compartments--one was Paradise (Abraham's Bosom) and the other was hell. Man had sinned, and satan still had the keys of hell and death, so the righteous did not go to Heaven upon death. They went to Paradise. If you read Ephesians, you see the One (Jesus) Who ascended also had descended--apparently to Paradise, where He "led captivity captive and gave gifts to men". I take that to mean Paradise, all those who were there, were taken to Heaven by Him, and Isaiah writes prophetically, "Hell hath enlarged itself". There was more space after Paradise was removed. Now that Christ had sacrificially atoned for man's sins, Christ took the keys of hell and death from the devil, and it was legal, per God's own rules, for Him to remove the inhabitants of Paradise to Heaven itself.

Take it or leave it--I'm not the only person who believes it, but it's not salvific if one believes or disbelieves, of course.

 

There are 10 references to the "righteous man" in the Old Testament. No offense meant, but I believe the Bible.

I think you probably meant there was no one without sin in the Old Testament--but neither are there any in the New Testament, except the Lord Jesus, and we are all still living in the New Testament to this day.

I didn't say Lazarus was in torment. Here it is again, WITH NOUNS and PRONOUNS:

Where was the rich man who gave Lazarus the crumbs from the rich man's table, after he the rich man died? Was he the rich man not in Abraham's bosom (no, he was not--there's where I confused you). And wasn't he the rich man in hellfire? Yet he the rich man could talk to Abraham, who was not in hellfire. And there was a great gulf between Abraham and those with him, and the rich man and those with him, the rich man, so they could not pass back and forth, yet they were aware of each other Abraham and the rich man.

Again, if you can't receive it (from Ephesians 4:8-10, you won't lose salvation over it, only some understanding.

 

Where do you think Abraham was? Heaven? Hades? If it was Heaven (and Heaven was Paradise, too), then how could the rich man recognize and speak to Abraham? It follows that Abraham was in hades, the place of the dead. But he wasn't being tormented. I will be interested to see your conclusion of Abraham's location.

 

Look at this study, A fire in Hades

 

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Does anyone own a Bible that they actually read? If I did not have any other statement of Jesus Christ to believe, I would believe that one. But I anticipate the liberals on this site will have read former liberals and have figured out a way to deny what Jesus meant and have written books about it.

The Bible is not hard to understand. Not at all. It is just hard to believe.

Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Hell = Paradise - great gulf ( Bottomless pit) - fire and torment - One in three and three in one, the trinitarian signature.

 

Having all these Bible translations that say different things is possibly why you struggle so with simple teachings of God. The heart of the earth is not where God was when Jesus body was laid in the tomb. The soul of Jesus was in hell, the division of which is called paradise. His work was finished on the cross, he said here.

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (does dead to sins mean total inability to sin? The answer is of course not. it means we are separated from sin by being joined to God by the new birth. Death means separation always but sin is not charged to the believer who has been washed in the blood. We wait for the new body that cannot sin)

Redemption was complete when Jesus went to paradise but Jesus was a man. He was born a tri-part man, soul, body, with the Holy Ghost, who is life dwelling in his body. He is the only man who has ever been born this way. However, the Spirit was not in his body when it lay in the tomb during the three days. He, like us now, was born from the dead when the Spirit entered into his body and raised it from the dead. It is said in several passages, which no one on this board has demonstrated they believe, that Jesus was the "firstborn" from the dead.

Sinners do not have the Spirit of God in their bodies. They have a soul in their bodies that will go either to heaven or torment in hell when the soul and body is separated by death. God, according to Ga 3 gives the Spirit to those who believe the work Jesus Christ did on the cross to redeem us and thereby approach God in his name while we live. This transaction is sealed by the promise of Jesus that "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee."

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Not sure what any of you guys teach that Jesus is beginning of, but the text says he is the beginning of the church, being the firstborn from the dead, a second birth that each of us must experience to be a son of God, being made by this spiritual birth into the image of God, a tri part creature, soul, body and Holy Ghost.

Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: (the spirit of holiness is the Holy Spirit)

This philosophy of continual Bible translating is a manifestation of the end times apostasy and men who are in this mindset have chosen the wrong side.

This is my opinion but I think it is right.

 

Answering Point 1. Yes, I know the difference. In the NT hades is a reference to hell in the center of the earth, a temporary holding place, first for the justified OT era saints, 2nd, for the angels who kept not their first estate and are reserved unto judgement of the great day. and thirdly, to the unjust who have died in time. Men and things go "down" to it.
Gehenna, OTOH, is a reference to the final abode of the damned, the lake of fire. Death and hell delivered up it's prey to be cast into Gehenna at the great white throne, where God isn't, and will never be and where the inhabitants of that place will be forgotten even by God himself. As far as I can tell there is no trinitarian signature on that place. Hades does have the sig. death, hell, and the grave, one in three and three in one. The same.

Point 3 - You are wrong about that but you probably got that from a new translation. If so, it will prove my point of how dangerous they are. The word preeminence is not a translation of the word sequence. Preeminence means his birth is a pattern of all who are born into the family of God and become his sons. The emphasis is on the family relationship with God the Father. Sinners are born in the image of Jesus Christ, who is the express image of God. Jesus Christ is a man and the first to be born this way by the Spirit, who is not in his body for three days. If he was, do you think he could be dead? Think! The Spirit from heaven and the soul from paradise entered into the body of Jesus and his body was quickened and glorified. The glorified body has not happened to his church, which is his mystical but fleshly body from the earth, but our promised glorified body will be given and it is two things. First, it is that which we, the church of Jesus Christ, who is also his bride, have been "predestinated" to. Second, it is our blessed hope.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
The "image" of Christ just means he is the trinitarian man. Redemption is first and foremost about renewing the image of God to fallen man.

Point 4 - He may be that and you might find scripture saying that but that is not what Col 1:18 says. It says he is the beginning of the church and it has nothing to do with sequence as the primary interpretation. It has to do with headship. It has to do with Lordship. It has to do with sonship from the dead. That is the important take away from this line of church doctrine.

Point 5 - I don't know what scripture you would use for this point but if it is an opinion I think I can agree with it.

Point 6 - I love the song but have not thought on it much. It is obvious to me the author wanted to exalt Christ and his doctrine.

 

Good grief. Here is the entire paragraph for context. Try to find the meaning of preeminence in the context.

12 ¶ Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of
darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we
have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the
image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all
things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things
consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the
firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it
pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace
through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were
sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and
unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith
grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you,
and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the
dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the
riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man
in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29
Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Compare these two passages;

Ps 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Ac 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

This comparison clearly teaches that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was a spiritual birth, the first of it's kind, and Paul writes Col 1:18 and says his resurrection was the beginning of his church. If that is not enough, Luke affirms it here when the gentiles first began to be saved in 40 AD.

Ac 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

The beginning of the church was in Acts 2 when they began receiving the Holy Ghost into their spiritually dead bodies and subsequently were made alive by his presence, seeing as how he, the Spirit, is life.

.Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.