Brightframe told you he believes scripture.
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Puritanism
- Thread starter JonC
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Brightframe told you he believes scripture.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
He did. But look what he said. That is a direct contradiction. You can only be justified by faith because you already were justified? We read the same scriptures and may disagree. I would say if you already were justified then you could not possibly be justified later.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
davexr650
I know its the correct way.
I know its the correct way.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
It's just iron sharpening iron, according to your little buddy. If he puts "WINNER" on it will that make you feel better?
I agree that we could not have been justified prior to our salvation. I have not seen any passages leading me to believe otherwise.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
davexr650
See you dont understand the difference between Justified before God and Justification before conscience. Its one and the same Justification
See you dont understand the difference between Justified before God and Justification before conscience. Its one and the same Justification
Well now Dave, what ever do you mean?
Oh really!
taken from Bethel PBC publishing:
We believe that in God’s own appointed time and way (by means which He has ordained) the elect shall be called, justified, pardoned, and sanctified; and that it is impossible that they can utterly refuse the calling of Grace, but shall be made willing, by Divine Grace, to receive the offers of mercy. Jude 1:1, Acts 2:39, Rom. 8:30, Heb. 13:12, 1 Cor. 1:2, Heb. 10:10; 10:14, I Pet. 1:2, II Thes. 2:13, I Cor. 6:11, Rom. 3:24, Tit. 3:7, Rom. 5:9.
We believe that eternal justification in the sight of God is only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. Rom. 3:24, Rom. 5:9; 8:30, Tit. 3:7.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Well. Please cite the one or two passages from the word of God in this regard.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I think you are talking about a different issue there. That's more an issue of assurance. I can see how you can arrive at the conclusion you do. Something that God himself has determined to accomplish WILL be accomplished. 100%. So can you count it as already accomplished? In a sense you can. But something doesn't happen until it happens, even if God says it will happen. So I still think you have to believe before you are justified - while at the same time I think you really will, if God determined that you will. The timing of the events is real, yet no less certain than your take on it. I hope that helps.
37818
Well-Known Member
Romans 8:29-30, ". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. . . ."
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Did you complain about this on the several threads currently active right now on covenant theology? Probably not. If, by chance you really did want to know, the answer is that R.C. Sproul, unless you lived under a rock for the past 25 years was the most popular writer of Calvinistic apologetics in the US at least. He was also the one who took over one of the big Puritan publishing houses and was therefore responsible for the popularization of their writings in a big way, before the internet and Kindle publishing really got going. He is hugely known in Baptist circles and half the Baptists in reformed Baptist churches are still walking around with "Tabletalk" pamphlets stuck in their Bibles.
I don’t care… I’m not a Calvinist, rather I’m a child of God. Sproul means nothing to me, scripture does.
My mother told me that Thinking you know something implys guessing, However saying you know something implys you’ve done the work to confirm it as fact. Thank you for proving her correct.
Yep....really. I have never read a passage that leads me to believe we were justified before we were born.
So what, we are elected before the foundation, so why not justified?
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@Martin Marprelate
Gonna put this here just as a note (so I can find it next time).
We discussed "sin" carrying the meaning of "sin offering". You seemed to be unfamiliar with that possibility. John Owen made that comment (that "sin" is also used to mean "sin offering") in his book Doctrine of Justification.
I was reading Owen and ran across that statement.
It is interesting (funny) that on this one I side for Owen and you side against him.
Gonna put this here just as a note (so I can find it next time).
We discussed "sin" carrying the meaning of "sin offering". You seemed to be unfamiliar with that possibility. John Owen made that comment (that "sin" is also used to mean "sin offering") in his book Doctrine of Justification.
I was reading Owen and ran across that statement.
It is interesting (funny) that on this one I side for Owen and you side against him.
What do you mean? I was saying I never encountered men being justified prior to even being born in Scripture. If people believe men are justified before they are born then it's an opportunity to provide a biblical reference.
@DaveXR650
A few interesting facts (yes...I'm at work....no nuclear accidents so I'm reading):
Calvin believed justification was through faith, that the person believes and is declared just. Owen believed the same.
But John Gill taught that justification was God's eternal act and faith its product.
So some Calvinists do hold to eternal justification. Pink suggested that many old Calvinists thought that way (he didn't name names). Abraham Kuyper (a Reformed Theologian) held that position.
I suggest it is a result of Calvinism (perhaps on the more extreme side). It is certainly a view within Calvinism....but Calvinism is a rather large umbrella.
A few interesting facts (yes...I'm at work....no nuclear accidents so I'm reading):
Calvin believed justification was through faith, that the person believes and is declared just. Owen believed the same.
But John Gill taught that justification was God's eternal act and faith its product.
So some Calvinists do hold to eternal justification. Pink suggested that many old Calvinists thought that way (he didn't name names). Abraham Kuyper (a Reformed Theologian) held that position.
I suggest it is a result of Calvinism (perhaps on the more extreme side). It is certainly a view within Calvinism....but Calvinism is a rather large umbrella.
what Baptist follows Calvin? So you need proof that The Elect are already justified in eternity?
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